Plug in solar and GFIs

Master Nater said:
the ones that expect their insurance companies to pay out a claim on a fire. this seems to be where things are heading. wiring against the code, will soon be the next big excuse for insurance not to pay.
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The tenants don't pay for fire insurance the building owner/landlords do. The only insurance the tenants can opt to carry is renters insurance which covers their content.
 
Plug-in solar has been legal for over a decade in Germany with over 1M+ installations now. Apparently they have had no significant record of safety incidents like the ones people are concerned about here. Comparatively, there appears to be many more reports of safety incidents for large battery power stations that are popular nonetheless and became legal without much controversy. So, based on apparent safety records, it seems odd that plug-in solar is not legal (except Utah) while large power stations are. Given how hard POCO's are fighting plug-in solar in various states, it seems they would have publicized any actual safety problems caused by plug-in solar.
 
curt swartz said:
The tenants don't pay for fire insurance the building owner/landlords do. The only insurance the tenants can opt to carry is renters insurance which covers their content.
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i believe this discussion was dealing with more than just tenants, but i could be wrong. it's been a busy last couple of days.

while routine maintance and periodic observation is a good practice of managing properties, a landlord does not even need to go inside their property to notice whether a tenant is putting up solar panels on their rental property. they're outside. also, not altering a property's electrical system, should be written into the rental agreement, anyhow.
 
One state has failed in an attempt to pass a plug in PV access bill. It will be interesting if there will be more push back in other states. I think they are figuring out that even if UL has a standard for plug in PV equipment and the new laws require UL listing for the law to apply, there is no law preventing the sale or use of consumer products that are not UL listed.
 
How much energy production could someone reasonably expect over the course of a year from one of these gizmos?
 
ggunn said:
How much energy production could someone reasonably expect over the course of a year from one of these gizmos?
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It'd be the same calculation inputs as any other PV, use PVwatts. Nameplate something like kW 0.4-0.8. The typical azimuth, tilt and shading will not be as optimal as professionally installed though. I can see a non-zero number of apartment dwellers with north facing balconies wondering why it didn't work out very well for them.
 
Now I am learning about all these products that basically seem to be a flow thru UPS with a PV input,
Its still marketed as 'plug in' in the sense a portable generator is plug in combined with a manual transfer switch exactly like what you'd see for a small gas generator, if I were UL or a AHJ I be more concerned about this kinda thing where you have 12 panels on a roof, than some collage kid with a panel plugged in to a receptacle.
This one is 3.5kW the '8-bit guy' demonstrates in this video;
 
jaggedben said:
I don't believe plug-in solar is actually legal anywhere in the US under utility rules, notwithstanding what ads might tell you. It's legal in parts of Europe, maybe it should be here too, but it's not.
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A local non-profit here, BrightSaver, claims
to have a plug in solar that's utility legal.
What they do is add a CT clamp sensor at the main, and discard any power that would otherwise backfeed. Thus, it's zero net backfeed.

On the other hand, a clearly legal approach is a standalone panel connected to a stanalone batter battery,
and the battery happens to be a plug and cord connected transfer switch. It takes some loads, line power, and PV and figures it out.
 
brycenesbitt said:
A local non-profit here, BrightSaver, claims
to have a plug in solar that's utility legal.
What they do is add a CT clamp sensor at the main, and discard any power that would otherwise backfeed. Thus, it's zero net backfeed.
Click to expand...
The concern I would have isn't the backfeed to the utility, but the total current available to the wiring of the branch circuit to which it is connected.
 
brycenesbitt said:
A local non-profit here, BrightSaver, claims
to have a plug in solar that's utility legal.
What they do is add a CT clamp sensor at the main, and discard any power that would otherwise backfeed. Thus, it's zero net backfeed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, PG&E would still say you need an interconnection agreement, if you asked, and the CPUC would ultimately back them up.

Also it's not NEC compliant to backfeed a branch circuit with load, even with a CT on the main.

Also, again, the CT makes it not really plug-in.

On the other hand, a clearly legal approach is a standalone panel connected to a stanalone batter battery,
and the battery happens to be a plug and cord connected transfer switch. It takes some loads, line power, and PV and figures it out.
Click to expand...

Yeah this sort of thing could be totally utility and NEC legit. But to be optimal it requires some load plugged into the standalone unit that utilizes most of the available solar.
 
Trying to police what people buy and plug in to a 15A 120V receptacle sounds like a fools errand for an AHJ, whats next they check for my illegal incandescent light-bulbs?
Now the 3.5kW 'plug in' flow thru UPS system with a PV input from twelve roof mounted 360 watt PV panels on a roof? That might be worthwhile time spent to look into..
 
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