POCO considering charging customers for new transformer.

[hornetd]

Tom that is not true. It varies by state. Here in NY national grid distributes and also generates. I can buy my electricity from them, but I can also choose another generator. TX is the only example I know of where consumers must chose a different energy provider.

That weirdness is caused by Texas keeping their grid intrastate and therefore not subject to federal regulations. If you check I suspect that you will find that National Grid is now 2 companies. One that does power production and one that does distribution. But I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

 

[petersonra]

What's the difference between what the OP said and lets say someone puts in an inground pool and the existing service drop will be right over the new pool. Should the POCO charge the homeowner for that? Isn't it the responsibility of the POCO to provide their clients with safe, reliable and amble power?

Also, I know the POCOs in my area have been charging customers for new equipment when a new building is being built for a long time now. Back in the day all of that was free because they knew they would make that up on the revenue. What changed?

If the customer added a pool after the service was already installed that is on the customer.

 

[Fred B]

How does a tankless water heater compare to an EV charger??

Tankless up here where ground water temp is much lower than southern states a typical on demand electric WH would require between 120A to 150A. a typical single EV charger is only 50A.

 

[retirede]

Tankless up here where ground water temp is much lower than southern states a typical on demand electric WH would require between 120A to 150A. a typical single EV charger is only 50A.

While I’ve never really thought about it, I would have thought water from even a relatively shallow well wouldn’t vary that much in temperature between various places.

 

[NewtonLaw]

What are your thoughts?
I recently had a service call to check out dimming lights in a residence that recently had an addition ( converted a carport to a room).
During my survey I found a new 18kw electric tankless water heater. Every time it came on the voltage feeding the house dropped 30 volts. This was measured at the top of the meter. I had the customer contact the poco for repair. Customer indicated 2 weeks later that the problem was fixed.
A few days later I ran into a manager from the poco and asked what they found. She told me that they are tired of having to change transformers and service drops because customers are installing these high wattage electric appliances without first checking with them about service requirements and are likely going to start charging customers for the upgrades.

The house was mid 70s and probably 1 of 3 houses on the transformer. House had original 200a service and well within the 200a load calculation. Currently there are 5 houses on the service transformer.

How can the poco justify charging customers for upgrades to their system when the home is still well under load of the original service supply equipment?

My POCO‘s tariff requires the customer to contact them for any load addition. Failure to do so places the customer in a position of financial responsibility for any and all system upgrades. Making contact allows the POCO to respond in a timely manner reducing their costs to respond on short notice load additions. Two neighbors of mine, one added a ground source heat pump coverting from gas to electric. Contacted the POCO first, no cost from the POCO. Second neighbor increase his heat pump from a 3 ton unit to a 5 ton unit, then complained to the POCO about light flicker. They said they would upgrade the transformer and service to him but he had to pay the total direct costs of doing so.

 

[Knightryder12]

If the customer added a pool after the service was already installed that is on the customer.

Not according to Duke Energy in West Central Florida. I did the exact thing, was expecting to have to pay, but they told me it was THEIR responsibility to bring safe, reliable and ample power to my home.

 

[jim dungar]

While I’ve never really thought about it, I would have thought water from even a relatively shallow well wouldn’t vary that much in temperature between various places.

Our water comes from a large lake (roughly 4 miles x 40 miles x 21 ft deep).
for at least six months it is below 50°F. In January, I wish it came from a well of any depth.

 

[Flicker Index]

I think residential demand charge is the fair way to go, so those who use it foot the bill rather than letting capacity saturate, then letting the last one to join the club pay the upgrade.

If you want the 720hp 5.2L V8 supercharged option for an F-150, that's $30,000+ added option over the 3.5L V6 ecoboost. You're paying for the enjoyment of being able to call upon the power to getting from stop to whatever speed quicker than the base while it lowers mpg and offers zero benefit in every day commute. What is demand charge? Same thing. Just like that 720hp engine is going to cost a lot upfront as well as cost you in reduced mpg in every day driving, larger distribution equipment cost the power company more in equipment, as well as no load loss.

Tankless electric is about the worst for utility, because it increases localized kW demand that strains local grid equipment without the long term benefit of increase in billable kWh. It's like they're being forced to rent the 720 hp v8 model for the same price as the base for the same per mile charge as the base model.

Tankless are worse than EVs. They don't add billable kWh sales over the tank water heater they replace and has a higher kW demand than EV. EV adds sizable billable kWh and have the capability to allow charge rate to be remotely controlled to match grid power availability.

 

[retirede]

I think residential demand charge is the fair way to go, so those who use it foot the bill rather than letting capacity saturate, then letting the last one to join the club pay the upgrade.

If you want the 720hp 5.2L V8 supercharged option for an F-150, that's $30,000+ added option over the 3.5L V6 ecoboost. You're paying for the enjoyment of being able to call upon the power to getting from stop to whatever speed quicker than the base while it lowers mpg and offers zero benefit in every day commute. What is demand charge? Same thing. Just like that 720hp engine is going to cost a lot upfront as well as cost you in reduced mpg in every day driving, larger distribution equipment cost the power company more in equipment, as well as no load loss.

Tankless electric is about the worst for utility, because it increases localized kW demand that strains local grid equipment without the long term benefit of increase in billable kWh. It's like they're being forced to rent the 720 hp v8 model for the same price as the base for the same per mile charge as the base model.

Tankless are worse than EVs. They don't add billable kWh sales over the tank water heater they replace and has a higher kW demand than EV. EV adds sizable billable kWh and have the capability to allow charge rate to be remotely controlled to match grid power availability.

TOU variable rates would probably be better at incentivizing use patterns that are better for the grid than demand charges.

TOU rates would cause people to run the washing machine, dishwasher, etc. on off-peak hours.

 

[jaggedben]

TOU variable rates would probably be better at incentivizing use patterns that are better for the grid than demand charges.

TOU rates would cause people to run the washing machine, dishwasher, etc. on off-peak hours.

I disagree that TOU rates would sufficiently affect people's choice of when to use hot water or are a powerful enough tool to compensate for the high demand of these on-demand electric water heaters. For the reasons already stated in this thread.

 

[retirede]

I disagree that TOU rates would sufficiently affect people's choice of when to use hot water or are a powerful enough tool to compensate for the high demand of these on-demand electric water heaters. For the reasons already stated in this thread.

If they ignore TOU, they’ll also ignore demand charges.

 

[wwhitney]

If they ignore TOU, they’ll also ignore demand charges.

I think jaggedben's point was that the cost increase for on-demand water heaters wouldn't be noticeable on TOU rates, but would be significant from demand charges.

I mean, isn't the kWh demand resulting from each hot water draw basically the same for both a tankless and tank resistance electric water heater? For the tankless, it occurs only when the hot water is running; for the tank, the kWh demand gets spread out over 2-10 times as long a time period but starts shortly after the hot water demand starts. So the only way in which a tankless is more expensive with TOU rates is when you have a hot water draw near the end of a high cost TOU period, and some fraction of the resulting kWh demand ends up in a lower cost TOU period if you have a tank water heater.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[gadfly56]

I disagree that TOU rates would sufficiently affect people's choice of when to use hot water or are a powerful enough tool to compensate for the high demand of these on-demand electric water heaters. For the reasons already stated in this thread.

They worked for me when I had an apartment. Of course, I was single and the peak usage period was basically when I was at work. Saturday and Sunday were off-peak.

 

[jaggedben]

If they ignore TOU, they’ll also ignore demand charges.

Not necessarily true at all! 36kW for 15 mins is 9kWh for which the typical TOU difference around here might be a dollar or two. Whereas as $5/kW demand charge would be $180. Big difference.

But the larger point is that the demand is also a problem for the utility at any time of day, because it's a distribution system cost as much as a generation cost.

 

[Jraef]

My POCO‘s tariff requires the customer to contact them for any load addition. Failure to do so places the customer in a position of financial responsibility for any and all system upgrades. Making contact allows the POCO to respond in a timely manner reducing their costs to respond on short notice load additions. Two neighbors of mine, one added a ground source heat pump coverting from gas to electric. Contacted the POCO first, no cost from the POCO. Second neighbor increase his heat pump from a 3 ton unit to a 5 ton unit, then complained to the POCO about light flicker. They said they would upgrade the transformer and service to him but he had to pay the total direct costs of doing so.

Same here, where PG&E dominates. If you do a service change without consulting them ahead of time, they can turn off your service until they go through their engineering evaluation. It’s been happening a lot recently where people are trying to get away with not taking out a permit to upgrade to 200A, because HD/Lowes employees or some YouTube dude are telling them they don’t need to “if their meter says CL200 on it”, which of course they all do. They get their service cut off, then they get a bill for the evaluation, regardless of whether PG&E needs to put in a new transformer. If you simply ask when you apply for the meter, 9/10 they don’t charge you anything unless, like in my neighborhood that has underground service, they have to retrench.

 

[jaggedben]

They worked for me when I had an apartment. Of course, I was single and the peak usage period was basically when I was at work. Saturday and Sunday were off-peak.

I didn't say no one would adjust their behavior But also some hot water usage (laundry, dishwasher) is easier to adjust than others (my daughter's shower). But again, the larger point is that TOU rates don't impose enough of a cost penalty to discourage on-demand electric water heaters or likely to recover the distribution upgrade costs for the utility, which aren't really time based anyway. I mean, if everyone installed one of these things and then started their dishwasher in the first hour after peak hours it would be a s#$^# show.

 

[wwhitney]

But again, the larger point is that TOU rates don't impose enough of a cost penalty to discourage on-demand electric water heaters.

Seems like for a typical pattern of hot water draws, they would usually impose zero cost penalty for a tankless electric compared to a tank electric water heater.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[gadfly56]

Seems like for a typical pattern of hot water draws, they would usually impose zero cost penalty for a tankless electric compared to a tank electric water heater.

Cheers, Wayne

Tank heaters are usually 4.5kW, split into an upper and lower element. Usually, you don't run both elements at the same time. Tankless water heaters are 18.5kW, and it runs full bore, especially in the winter. I can see a case for TOU having an impact; more so, demand charges.

 

[petersonra]

The main issue with tankless is the high load posed for short periods of time. The utility has to provide the load for a few minutes but there is no way to recoup the cost of doing so from normal delivery charges.

 

[hillbilly1]

Tank heaters are usually 4.5kW, split into an upper and lower element. Usually, you don't run both elements at the same time. Tankless water heaters are 18.5kW, and it runs full bore, especially in the winter. I can see a case for TOU having an impact; more so, demand charges.

Well, yes and no temperature control is regulated by pulses, and number of elements energized on tankless water heaters, so a 18.5 kw may not be at full output if it’s not running full flow. The old ones were off/on, but temperature regulation sucked. I had one of the first variable flame gas ones, still not great on regulation, but was better than the first electric ones.