POCO rejects service

[growler]

That's why it's best to do things the way they are used to seeing them. To come in the top of the meter can may have been a little more work but a lot less confusion.

You have a point here. Perhaps it might be intended to prevent worker confusion. But at the same time Id teach linemen to think outside the box.

No one would be confused about how it's wired only if it meets power company policy.

I had power company service crew show up to connect power. The electrical inspector was standing right beside me telling them it had passed inspection and that he had called it in. The head inspector was on the phone with one of the supervisors at the power company telling them he had faxed the correct forms to them on the job and they admitted they had gotten this information but for some reason they could not enter it into the computer and get the computer to issue a work order for a reconnect. The crews wait around for about 20 minutes and then leave telling me they will be back when the "computer" issues the correct work order ( company policy ). Two days later we get power.

We don't deal with people that are allowed independant thought anymore. We deal with computers and company policy.

 

[mbrooke]

We don't deal with people that are allowed independant thought anymore. We deal with computers and company policy.

And that has been and will be our greatest down fall As I've always said, an unbiased mind is an authority in itself.

 

[peter d]

They can always throw some barrel locks on it and call it a day. :roll:

 

[iwire]

Many of you are looking at this from the perspective of an electrician.

Try thinking about it from the perspective of a bean counter and the cash register they look over.

Electrical theft is a real issue, power companies have people that try to track it down.

Furthermore these rules go way back before the safety of employees was a factor.

With a service conductor passing by a feeder conductor similar to the OPs picture all you would have to do is pound a finish nail into them to bypass the meter.

We have had pictures of that being done with drywall screws.

 

[rippledipple]

inspection

inspection

Many of you are looking at this from the perspective of an electrician.

Try thinking about it from the perspective of a bean counter and the cash register they look over.

Electrical theft is a real issue, power companies have people that try to track it down.

Furthermore these rules go way back before the safety of employees was a factor.

With a service conductor passing by a feeder conductor similar to the OPs picture all you would have to do is pound a finish nail into them to bypass the meter.
not for nothing guys,but i would have never done it that way,and i would expect to fail. sorry!

 

[GerryB]

Let me answer a few questions raised since I posted the upside down pic. I came out the side because I had to move over to the left of the old conduit to avoid the swing of a gate. The old meters were in the basement. The old conduit was j-channeled and just old shingles behind the channel. I came out the side and jumped into the channel. It actually looked really good for SEU cable, even the inspector (an electrician) said he would have done the same thing.
The POCO mentioned the things said in other posts, safety and confusion for their (professional experienced) personnel??? and power theft.
Most of you guys mentioned breaking the seals. Well, this is the inner city, and this POCO locks everything even in the burbs. When these meters are installed every one will have a ring with a lock and there will be another lock on the main compartment. If you want to steal power you might as well screw those screws in the cable outside the meter provision.
They actually are going to allow me to punch the side at the top and enter the conductors. This way the service entrance conductors will run along the top where the buss is and the loads will be on the bottom. So that was a good concession I didn't think they would make, at least save me from buying more cable.
As was stated by someone, you have no recourse with these people, and one doesn't want to overrule another and make them look bad. There were no safety issues for sure.

 

[kwired]

Many of you are looking at this from the perspective of an electrician.

Try thinking about it from the perspective of a bean counter and the cash register they look over.

Electrical theft is a real issue, power companies have people that try to track it down.

Furthermore these rules go way back before the safety of employees was a factor.

With a service conductor passing by a feeder conductor similar to the OPs picture all you would have to do is pound a finish nail into them to bypass the meter.

We have had pictures of that being done with drywall screws.

And before you pound that nail in you will have to cut off a lock or seal to gain access to do so.

If anything they don't want their technicians to have to think, they want cookie cutter installations as much as possible. Keep line and load side conductors separated as much as possible and there is less chance of making a mistake on connecting them.

 

[mbrooke]

Many of you are looking at this from the perspective of an electrician.

Try thinking about it from the perspective of a bean counter and the cash register they look over.

Electrical theft is a real issue, power companies have people that try to track it down.

Furthermore these rules go way back before the safety of employees was a factor.

With a service conductor passing by a feeder conductor similar to the OPs picture all you would have to do is pound a finish nail into them to bypass the meter.

We have had pictures of that being done with drywall screws.

I agree, however the same can be done from inside the attic or bedroom. The exact point behind the SEU is found, small hole drilled in the plywood and screws driven through the 2 conductors with the jacket and concentric neutral cut/pushed away. Relay is often tossed in to open the tap conductors when the metered bedroom power is cut so linemen don't catch it when the meter is pulled. Not giving people ideas but there are other ways to steal power besides the meter pan.

 

[mbrooke]

The POCO mentioned the things said in other posts, safety and confusion for their (professional experienced) personnel??? and power theft.

I hate to say it (a few folks might be upset but I am always in a bashful mood ) however some linemen are not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier or the most well trained. Linemen are taught to follow rigid standards and are often trained not to proceed unless they can fully gauge the situation at hand. If an unexperienced line guy enters that socket (especially if its only the center section) they will not understand where and why those conductors are coming from, ditto for the side SEU. They might mistaken it for an incorrectly wired socket or one that has been illegally rigged by a home owner to back feed a generator. I know, in my book its silly and the line men out to know better, but POCOs tend to play by their own set of rules.

BTW, I see your post says CT. Is this Eversource or UI? If its Eversource it would not surprise me in the least, IMO they are nazis and Id rather be carved to pieces than to work for them.

 

[user 100]

Many of you are looking at this from the perspective of an electrician.

Try thinking about it from the perspective of a bean counter and the cash register they look over.

Electrical theft is a real issue, power companies have people that try to track it down.

Furthermore these rules go way back before the safety of employees was a factor.

With a service conductor passing by a feeder conductor similar to the OPs picture all you would have to do is pound a finish nail into them to bypass the meter.

We have had pictures of that being done with drywall screws.

Power theft cost utilities untold millions of dollars a year, you bet they're going to put whatever they can in their specs to stop it - in Texas doing it can get you a misdemeanor at the least and getting more than a grand or two in free electricity is a state jail felony and you can do real time for it- still that isn't enough to dissuade those convinced they won't be busted, as evidenced by the types of creativity mentioned in your post.

No sympathy whatsoever for power thieves- their cheater taps often puts other lives at risk, and costs the rest of us when poco's lose revenue- nothing is free, no matter how large or how many billions a company is worth-their money has to come from somewhere.

 

[iwire]

And before you pound that nail in you will have to cut off a lock or seal to gain access to do so.

No kidding? As always you have a firm grip with the painfully obvious.

If anything they don't want their technicians to have to think, they want cookie cutter installations as much as possible. Keep line and load side conductors separated as much as possible and there is less chance of making a mistake on connecting them.

If anything they want to be able to look in and quickly see if there is stealing going on. Now obviously in the OPs situation it is pretty easy to tell what is going on but the rules where not written specifically for the OPs job, they are written to cover all jobs.

 

[iwire]

Power theft cost utilities untold millions of dollars a year, you bet they're going to put whatever they can in their specs to stop it - in Texas doing it can get you a misdemeanor at the least and getting more than a grand or two in free electricity is a state jail felony and you can do real time for it- still that isn't enough to dissuade those convinced they won't be busted, as evidenced by the types of creativity mentioned in your post.

No sympathy whatsoever for power thieves- their cheater taps often puts other lives at risk, and costs the rest of us when poco's lose revenue- nothing is free, no matter how large or how many billions a company is worth-their money has to come from somewhere.

Thank you.

 

[growler]

"Under no condition will the company approve the installation of metered and unmetered conductors in the same conduit, raceway or wiring trough. In combination meter-main service equipment, the line and load wiring must be isolated to there respective compartments."

If anything they want to be able to look in and quickly see if there is stealing going on. Now obviously in the OPs situation it is pretty easy to tell what is going on but the rules where not written specifically for the OPs job, they are written to cover all jobs.

I don't see where the rule even covers the OPs job. This is not a meter-main service and this is not conduit, a raceway or a wiring trough.

In a meter -main service only the metering section is sealed. So that's understandable.

This whole meter can will be sealed and under the control of the power company. If they don't have any safety concerns then to fail this installation is BS.

That may be looking at things as an electrician but technically he didn't break any rules.

 

[Smart $]

Power theft cost utilities untold millions of dollars a year...

Technically, power theft does not cost them a cent. Utilities do not operate at a loss, so any cost involved with power theft is paid by consumers.

 

[K8MHZ]

Technically, power theft does not cost them a cent. Utilities do not operate at a loss, so any cost involved with power theft is paid by consumers.

Technically, people are stealing energy, not power.

Our POCO changed it's name from Consumers Power to Consumers Energy in order to be more accurate. In their old office they had a sign on it with the word 'Energy' misspelled. I think I have a picture of it somewhere.

Energy theft costs consumers (small c) millions of dollars a year.

 

[user 100]

Technically, power theft does not cost them a cent. Utilities do not operate at a loss, so any cost involved with power theft is paid by consumers.

And I noted in the end of my response to iwire's quote that theft from utilities cost the rest of us and that the utilities get their money from somewhere-meaning consumers.

Not being a smart butt, but I will say to to the op that it's always helpful to have a copy/be familiar of the poco specs on hand when doing a service- and a have specs with you when they go out to clear a service- if they don't prohibit what they are nailing you for then call them on it- may not do any good but worth a shot.

 

[GerryB]

I hate to say it (a few folks might be upset but I am always in a bashful mood ) however some linemen are not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier or the most well trained. Linemen are taught to follow rigid standards and are often trained not to proceed unless they can fully gauge the situation at hand. If an unexperienced line guy enters that socket (especially if its only the center section) they will not understand where and why those conductors are coming from, ditto for the side SEU. They might mistaken it for an incorrectly wired socket or one that has been illegally rigged by a home owner to back feed a generator. I know, in my book its silly and the line men out to know better, but POCOs tend to play by their own set of rules.

BTW, I see your post says CT. Is this Eversource or UI? If its Eversource it would not surprise me in the least, IMO they are nazis and Id rather be carved to pieces than to work for them.

This is UI. I've worked in Eversource (old CL&P) also. One thing they both do is want the electrician to sign off on buildings that have been without power for more then six months saying all is hunky dory. I've done it plenty of times, just check the grounding really, but some I've thought be nice to have power to really check it out. Right now on an ug service I have UI is telling a customer he needs to run ridgid under the driveway, even though it will be 2' down. Years ago on a 4fam for eversource they said (the engineer) I had to run conductors for 400amps. He actually said the add up the size of the breakers to get that? Whatever.

 

[mbrooke]

This is UI. I've worked in Eversource (old CL&P) also. One thing they both do is want the electrician to sign off on buildings that have been without power for more then six months saying all is hunky dory. I've done it plenty of times, just check the grounding really, but some I've thought be nice to have power to really check it out. Right now on an ug service I have UI is telling a customer he needs to run ridgid under the driveway, even though it will be 2' down. Years ago on a 4fam for eversource they said (the engineer) I had to run conductors for 400amps. He actually said the add up the size of the breakers to get that? Whatever.

ES/UI are very progressive utilities imo, that is for sure. Regarding the UG conductors and services, my understanding (though I could be wrong) is that with Eversource requires electricians to run their own conductors rather than POCO bringing their own to the meter. Not sure about UI, but if so that might also explain the rigid requirement. POCO engineers are simply repeating what they believe the NEC mandates or actually does mandate if the electrician is responsible for that portion of work.


In terms of your meter socket I would fight it with detailed explanations, but if UI follows their own internal rules like Eversource does you will have to bring that SEU into the correct compartment.

 

[user 100]

Right now on an ug service I have UI is telling a customer he needs to run ridgid under the driveway, even though it will be 2' down. Years ago on a 4fam for eversource they said (the engineer) I had to run conductors for 400amps. He actually said the add up the size of the breakers to get that? Whatever.

POCO inspector #1 needs to have specs to back up his assertions- like how deep can the ug at a minimum and what type of conduit is allowed, so on and so forth. If there is no poco standard/ local amendment stating such need for overkill he should not be able to require anything legally- you can file a complaint w/ your puc-bos/appropriate state agency. If this is a mere suggestion, just nod and tune him out.


POCO inspector #2 is....well.....

 

[mbrooke]

POCO inspector #1 needs to have specs to back up his assertions- like how deep can the ug at a minimum and what type of conduit is allowed, so on and so forth. If there is no poco standard/ local amendment stating such need for overkill he should not be able to require anything legally- you can file a complaint w/ your puc-bos/appropriate state agency. If this is a mere suggestion, just nod and tune him out.


POCO inspector #2 is....well.....

Id try and reasonably fight it. CT (and todays country in general) is full of way to many complacent people which leads to being screwed over at every corner. UI needs to back this up.