Pool Bonding Lugs

[Little Bill]

What code section allows this. Not seeing it. The liner is not the shell.

680.26(B)(3)
(3) Metallic Components.
All metallic parts of the pool structure, including reinforcing metal not addressed in 680.26(B)⁠(1)⁠(a), shall be bonded. Where reinforcing steel is encapsulated with a nonconductive compound, the reinforcing steel shall not be required to be bonded.

Pool water is still required to be bonded and most metal framing of the above ground pool structure is touchable from within a pool and would create same hazard as any other pool metal addressed in the EQ bonding requirements.

So the only question that remains, Is the pool storable or permanent per the code? Even a storable pool still has to abide to parts 1 & 2 of 680 per 680.30.

680.26(B)(1)
Vinyl liners and fiberglass composite
shells shall be considered to be nonconductive materials.

680.26(B)(2)
For nonconductive pool shells, bonding at four points
shall not be required.

 

[augie47]

I agree with Fred. A vinyl liner with metallic frame is not a nonconductive pool shell. The only nonconductive pool shells I've seen look like overgrown flower pots

 

[david]

What code section allows this. Not seeing it. The liner is not the shell.

680.26(B)(3)
(3) Metallic Components.
All metallic parts of the pool structure, including reinforcing metal not addressed in 680.26(B)⁠(1)⁠(a), shall be bonded. Where reinforcing steel is encapsulated with a nonconductive compound, the reinforcing steel shall not be required to be bonded.

Pool water is still required to be bonded and most metal framing of the above ground pool structure is touchable from within a pool and would create same hazard as any other pool metal addressed in the EQ bonding requirements.

So the only question that remains, Is the pool storable or permanent per the code? Even a storable pool still has to abide to parts 1 & 2 of 680 per 680.30.

I've seen non conductive pool shells for inground pools.

Most of the pool shells for above ground pools have neral shells, I think Fred making the distinction between a vinyl liner and a metal shell is valid when you consider stray ground currents.

 

[david]

680.26(B)(1)
Vinyl liners and fiberglass composite
shells shall be considered to be nonconductive materials.

680.26(B)(2)
For nonconductive pool shells, bonding at four points
shall not be required.

It seems to imply that a pool with a vinyl liner means the shell is to be considered non conductive but dosnt come out and say that

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It seems to imply that a pool with a vinyl liner means the shell is to be considered non conductive but dosnt come out and say that

No it doesn't say that exactly however, what 4 pts. would they be talking about when it says the 4 pts shall not be needed for a non conductive pool liner.

If there are metal structures for the pool then how would they conduct thru the non- conductive liner. If there is stray voltage it cannot enter into the pool, imo

 

[david]

And the language seems more applicable to uinground pools where the liner would insulate the conductive shell from contact, the lasr sentence says exposed metal still needs bonded

 

[david]

No it doesn't say that exactly however, what 4 pts. would they be talking about when it says the 4 pts shall not be needed for a non conductive pool liner.

If there are metal structures for the pool then how would they conduct thru the non- conductive liner. If there is stray voltage it cannot enter into the pool, imo

Above ground pools people hang there arms out all the time, elbows, hands and arms come in contact with the shell

 

[Little Bill]

And the language seems more applicable to uinground pools where the liner would insulate the conductive shell from contact, the lasr sentence says exposed metal still needs bonded

I never said it shouldn't be bonded. I said the 4 points wasn't required. I even told the OP that.

All the AG pools I've seen, none had any metal exposed on the outside. They have plastic covers and caps that go over the posts and top. You have to remove the cover on the posts to even get a lug put on.

 

[david]

I'm not saying you did. I understood you said one point bonding, by saying that you agree with Fred that the pool she'll is a conducive material.

All I'm saying is the section posted is more applicable to in ground pools that have conductive shells. The liner insulated from contact the conductive materials. And I also pointed out that the last sentence says if there are any conductive surfaces of the pool structure that can be touched that must be bonded.
So logic would say if you have a liner that insulated a conductive shell from contact your not required four points of bonding.
The rispical of that sentence would mean if the liner doesn't insulated the conductive shell from contact it must have 4 points of bonding

 

[Fred B]

Other than inflatable or single piece non framed pools they either have a metal framework or a PVC one that supports the liner.
Metal framed ones usually have a base metal ring that the metal strut uprights attach to and an accompanying top ring that the liner and metal or fiberglass skirt attach to. The Bonding would attach to the bottom frame ring at 4 equally space points around that ring. Most of these rings will have sufficient predrilled holes that the bonding can attach to.
Now if this is one of the type that are totally PVC on bottom rail , side supports, top ring, and the skirt, then there is nothing to bond and would be exempt as a non conductive shell.

single piece non framed pool nothing to bond

Metal support frame type. Would seem bonding but how many connections? Would depend on how components are interconnected.


Metal shell and uprights

Specifications:

• Includes skimmer and blue liner. For liner upgrades or accessories click customize this pool
• The Boreal pool features 7" wide galvanized steel top ledges with clear liquid vinyl corrosion resistant coating
• Injected Resin Bottom Connectors and Top Caps resist bad weather, chlorinated water and constant wear
• Durable 6" galvanized steel upright posts
• 52" high galvanized steel wall with a Plasticized coating to prevent corrosion
• Zinc coated hardware
• Heavy Duty coated galvanized steel bottom rails
• Galvanized steel top stabilizer rails for extra strength
• Oval NBS space saving support system saves much needed yard space
• Frame Color: Charcoal grey upright posts with medium grey top ledges
• Wall Color/Design: Striking "Royal" wall pattern in Taupe with white and grey accents

Anyone tell me that this one doesn't have metal needing bonding? I would disagree all day.

 

[Fred B]

If there is stray voltage it cannot enter into the pool, imo

The Water bond is still required. And its not totally about stray voltage, but also unintentional introduction of current into a pool. See MH Pool bonding video "120V swimming", it is the bonding making it safe.

 

[david]

I would conclude it's not really about being bonded in four points or not.

It's about the language saying a pool she'll with a vinyl liner is to be considered non conductive.
I strongly beleave these rules are more applicable as written to in ground pools. We have to make application to above ground pools the best we can

Consider a block or concrete she'll and latex paint we told the paint is not to be considered non conductive.

Consider the same pool with a vinyl liner we are told the liner is to be considered non conductive.

When you Consider two methods of water proofing a pool she'll one is and one isn't to be considered conductive.

With above ground pools ask yourself does the lining protect from contact a conductive shell

Second ask youself are you willing to say the she'll is not conductive material

Really what your saying, is the she'll required to be bonded or not

If the she'll is required to be bonded I don't see how it can be said that's not a 4 point requirement

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The Water bond is still required. And its not totally about stray voltage, but also unintentional introduction of current into a pool. See MH Pool bonding video "120V swimming", it is the bonding making it safe.

I have seen Mike Holt video many times. Of course, there is stray current and it can get in the pool without proper bonding. I was saying the metal structure that is in the ground to support the pool will not be able to conduct stray voltage thru the non conductive liner.

 

[augie47]

I have seen Mike Holt video many times. Of course, there is stray current and it can get in the pool without proper bonding. I was saying the metal structure that is in the ground to support the pool will not be able to conduct stray voltage thru the non conductive liner.

Neither would a chain link fence 3 ft from the edge of the pool or a metallic window frame but we are still required to bond them.

 

[Fred B]

Neither would a chain link fence 3 ft from the edge of the pool or a metallic window frame but we are still required to bond them.

Actually 680.26(B)(7) exception #2 says metal parts greater than 5ft from inside wall of pool is exempt from bonding. So yes at 3 ft it does need bonding, but so does 4ft 11inches, and so does 5ft, but not 5ft 1inch.

 

[augie47]

Actually 680.26(B)(7) exception #2 says metal parts greater than 5ft from inside wall of pool is exempt from bonding. So yes at 3 ft it does need bonding, but so does 4ft 11inches, and so does 5ft, but not 5ft 1inch.

Understood....my point being if we are required to bond a metallic object 4'11" away from the pool would it not be logical that we bond a pool support structure adjacent to the pool.

 

[david]

I have seen Mike Holt video many times. Of course, there is stray current and it can get in the pool without proper bonding. I was saying the metal structure that is in the ground to support the pool will not be able to conduct stray voltage thru the non conductive liner.

I think your point is valid as far as passing through a non conductive material such as a liner.

The last pool helped erect had a metal track similar to alum j channel for siding except it was heavy tin painted black baked on enamel 14 ft diameter bought from Walmart I beleave.

That was the track for the metal uprights and tin panels that made up the shell

That certainly made a foot print into the sand bed the manufacture recommended be laid down.

I just can't see the liner exception being valid if contact to the metal shell is not being prevented.

Swimming pools are a social activity, people in the water kids running around contact with the metal shell all the time. I seen kids heads touching the shell even the side of there face up against the shell while bending down to pick up a ball, ground soaking wet from water being splashed from the pool.

You would have to be 100% sure the code is indicating the shell to be defined as non conductive before you could say the NEC is not requiring it to be bonded

And if you cannot be that sure bond it in 4 points and be done with it.

 

[Little Bill]

I would conclude it's not really about being bonded in four points or not.

It's about the language saying a pool she'll with a vinyl liner is to be considered non conductive.
I strongly beleave these rules are more applicable as written to in ground pools. We have to make application to above ground pools the best we can

Consider a block or concrete she'll and latex paint we told the paint is not to be considered non conductive.

Consider the same pool with a vinyl liner we are told the liner is to be considered non conductive.

When you Consider two methods of water proofing a pool she'll one is and one isn't to be considered conductive.

With above ground pools ask yourself does the lining protect from contact a conductive shell

Second ask youself are you willing to say the she'll is not conductive material

Really what your saying, is the she'll required to be bonded or not

If the she'll is required to be bonded I don't see how it can be said that's not a 4 point requirement

Is your spell check a female?
She will (She'll) what?

 

[david]

Is your spell check a female?
She will (She'll) what?

That's auto correct on a smart phone, it helps most of the time but it often choices to insert what it was programed to correct

 

[david]

Is your spell check a female?
She will (She'll) what?

To answer your question she was. Velavictorian of her high school class, 4.0 grade average @ Youngstown state university, that was her job at the court house reading over papers and making corrections before they were sent to final draft.

Me I was always picked last on any spelling bee contest, you would not not me on your team.

You should have seen all the red marks on any paper of mine she read over before it was typed for final draft.

She had muscular dystrophy never was supposed to live past 6 years old. We spent 25 years together before it took her.

I can almost hear her laughing as you typed that and your right, thank God for spell check