Pool Bonding

I don't see the misunderstanding. You can take 250 completely out of the picture and 680.26 will still be needed. You can have a pool with no electrical connection and still need the equipotential bonding. The two are completely separate. I will say that the EGC on equipment will, by default, connect the bonding grid to the system ground. But its is just a point where the two meet. They are still separate.
Even with a fault, the EB will keep everything at the same potential and mitigate a shock hazard.
 
WD40 said:
Do you read the last sentence to exempt a pool grounding grid that say for example in your opinion is likely to become energized exemption from 250.4(A)(5)? I think falls short of that.
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The bonding grid in 680 has nothing to do with anything in 250.4. The words "shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panel boards, service equipment, or electrodes." can't be any more clear. It's an equi-potential grid, not a fault clearing path.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Not implied...there are zero restrictions as to what modifications of the rules in Chapters 1-4 that can be made by rules in Chapters 5-7.
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You saying safety rule 250 bonding to be grounded not required in 680.26(B)?
But see
Deltaforce said:
The last sentence seem contradict 250 but no actually as pool bonding grid connect egc through other components like pool pump enclosure with egc connection
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Deltaforce said:
The last sentence seem contradict 250 but no actually as pool bonding grid connect egc through other components like pool pump enclosure with egc connection
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That's incidental. If there were no pool pump, etc. there is no equipment ground connected to the pool bonding grid. The pool bonding grid is not a fault clearing path, it is not required to be a fault clearing path, it was never meant to be a fault clearing path. It exists to make a pool safe if a fault is never cleared or the voltage comes from a source other than a fault such as the electric utility.
 
WD40 said:
is likely to become energized
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What definition of "likely" are you using? Are you likely to win the lottery?

If there is energized pool equipment of course 250 applies. But if there is no electricity run to the pool at all 680 still applies.
 
ActionDave said:
That's incidental. If there were no pool pump, etc. there is no equipment ground connected to the pool bonding grid. The pool bonding grid is not a fault clearing path, it is not required to be a fault clearing path, it was never meant to be a fault clearing path. It exists to make a pool safe if a fault is never cleared or the voltage comes from a source other than a fault such as the electric utility.
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If no electrical items in and around pool, it generally exempt nec.

Let talk pool with Electrical fittings.

That case

For pool

Equipotential potential grid one system

Grounding system and gfci's another system

Neither system effective without the other.

Without GFCIs and grounding, a ground fault
energize the pool area, potentially compromise the equipotential bonding as it design handle stray currents by neutral to ground voltages

Without the bonding grid, stray voltages create a dangerous gradient between bonded equipment and other surfaces, even with GFCIs in place.
 
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Deltaforce said:
If no electrical items in and around pool, it generally exempt nec.

Let talk pool with Electrical fittings.

That case

For pool

Equipotential potential grid one system

Grounding system and gfci's another system

Neither system effective without the other.

Without GFCIs and grounding, a ground fault
energize the pool area, potentially compromise the equipotential bonding as it design handle stray currents by neutral to ground voltages

Without the bonding grid, stray voltages create a dangerous gradient between bonded equipment and other surfaces, even with GFCIs in place.
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In 'If no electrical items in and around pool, it generally exempt nec ' mean 'If no electrical fittings in and around pool, it generally exempt nec 250'.
 
Now next step
Necessary the pool equipotential grid low resistance.
A bird on overhead power line unharm, because low resistance powerline
High resistance powerline electrocute the bird
 
Deltaforce said:
Still contradiction no
If with Electrical Equipment, 250 requirement trigger
If without electrical equipment . no relevance to 250, it exempt
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There is no contradiction, rather there is coordination.
250 applies to any and all electrical equipment, by using an EGC.
680 applies to all non-electrical equipment, by using an equipotential grid.
250 and 680 require a  jumper interconnection between these independent systems when a pool has both types of equipment.
 
Deltaforce said:
Still contradiction no
If with Electrical Equipment, 250 requirement trigger
If without electrical equipment . no relevance to 250, it exempt
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I have absolutely no idea of what you are trying to say!
You said that pool bonding is not required when there is no electrical equipment associated with the pool. I simply posted the code section that very clearly says pool bonding is always required, even if there is no electrical equipment associated or anywhere near the pool.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I have absolutely no idea of what you are trying to say!
You said that pool bonding is not required when there is no electrical equipment associated with the pool. I simply posted the code section that very clearly says pool bonding is always required, even if there is no electrical equipment associated or anywhere near the pool.
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Very sorry
In
Deltaforce said:
If no electrical items in and around pool, it generally exempt nec.
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Mean
Deltaforce said:
'If no electrical fittings in and around pool, it generally exempt nec 250
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I not say pool bonding is not required when there is no electrical equipment associated with the pool.
 
jim dungar said:
What definition of "likely" are you using? Are you likely to win the lottery?
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Over the years there have been several pool related electrical shock incidents, some with fatalities involved, where an equipment grounding conductor had failed, in those incidents the pool grid was energized.

Several incidents in particular have involved a energized pump motor housing, and did not involve drowning, I remember hearing about one years ago in a class that was an electrocution of a lifeguard doing cleaning and maintenance if the filters.
jim dungar said:
If there is energized pool equipment of course 250 applies. But if there is no electricity run to the pool at all 680 still applies.
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Right we agree then, a standard in ground pool with powered pump and lights 250 applies.
Like the one in Mikes videos.
The confusion and debate comes from the last part of 680.26 says a pool grid not 'intended' to be a ground-fault return path.
It does not say its exempt, or prohibited from being a ground-fault return path.
my opinion as as soon as a ECG is connected to a pool grid the grid is 'likely
become energized', as can be seen by several unfortunate and tragic incidents.
 
WD40 said:
It does not say its exempt, or prohibited from being a ground-fault return path.
my opinion as as soon as a ECG is connected to a pool grid the grid is 'likely
become energized', as can be seen by several unfortunate and tragic incidents
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The grid should not be used in lieu of a 250 sized EGC.
If you have a failure of the 250 EGC(s), yes the equipotential grid may become elevated, but the grid is intended to provide equal potential to all of the metallic surfaces regardless if it is a local ground current issue or stray voltage/current from some other property.
 
I’m going to try a NEV test today, but I have a some of questions.
1. Does it matter how deep my reference point is? Could I use a long screwdriver? If so, just strip the conductor and wrap it around?

2. There are pavers for a pool deck here. Just wet the paver and look for a reading?

4. What would you recommend I use for a conductor for my test? Does it matter the size, and is solid or stranded better?

Thank you
 
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