Portable Nuclear Substation fits in a truck

[ramsy]

This guy gives a fairly nice lecture about the 'Natrium' reactor mentioned in post #55

Yes, very informative. Mr. Gates did some homework on this one.

 

[winnie]

The difficulty is converting it to equivalent electrical or thermal power, since power is the instantaneous rate of energy production, it would matter what time interval the yield was released over. Power output would (maybe) follow a Gaussian curve, as the production of neutrons peaked and dropped off once the fuel was too dispersed by the explosion to sustain the chain reaction? Any nuclear engineers in the house?

Yea, converting the energy output number into a power number becomes sort of meaningless since the design intent of the device is to have instantaneous output. Kind of like asking what the power output of a hammer is when striking a nail. IMHO it makes more sense to think of it in terms of an impulse; so much energy output squished into a very small and not well understood amount of time.

Of course if you surround the bomb with something to absorb the energy and smooth out the production you end up with 'Project PACER' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_PACER

Drop a couple of bombs a day into an underground water filled chamber and extract enough heat to run a 2 GW power plant. Not a truck scale system

-Jon

 

[winnie]

This guy gives a fairly nice lecture about the 'Natrium' reactor mentioned in post #55

Commenting on my own post: Prof Ruzic strikes me as extremely competent and presents well thought out lectures on the topic of nuclear power. I feel that he is strongly biased pro-nuclear, but this bias comes out as subtle amplification of pro-nuclear and anti-alternative power rather than anything blatant or outright false.

-Jon

 

[ggunn]

Of course if you surround the bomb with something to absorb the energy and smooth out the production you end up with 'Project PACER' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_PACER

Or if you wanted to propel a spacecraft with nuclear bombs... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion

 

[ramsy]

Prof Ruzic strikes me as extremely competent and presents well thought out lectures on the topic of nuclear power. I feel that he is strongly biased pro-nuclear, but this bias comes out as subtle amplification of pro-nuclear and anti-alternative power rather than anything blatant or outright false.

-Jon

Now that you mention it, the lecture ignores molten salt energy storage used for concentrated solar power (CSP) plants.

24-Hour Solar Energy: Molten Salt Makes It Possible, and Prices Are Falling Fast - Inside Climate News

Sign up to receive our latest reporting on climate change, energy and environmental justice, sent directly to your inbox. Subscribe here. The first thing you see of the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Facility, and you can be miles away, is a light so bright you can’t look directly at it. This sits...

insideclimatenews.org

Claims of preserving jobs may also be misleading.

Directly re-purposing jobs and coal-plant turbines, as proposed for the sodium-reactor program, ignores the public policy that follows these public-works projects.

Organized labor is often awarded bargaining agreements to build & maintain subsidized power plants, and public works. The training programs of these sponsored apprenticeships like ABC & NECA/IBEW are boot camps, designed to wash out poor performance or academic truancy, not re-train old plant operators & coal miners.

It would be more accurately stated that previous coal-plant manpower will likely be humiliated in the style of hell's kitchen, before expelled from the training program, but the number of jobs filled by surviving graduates will be equal to the jobs lost.

 

[gadfly56]

Now that you mention it, the lecture ignores molten salt energy storage used for concentrated solar power (CSP) plants.

24-Hour Solar Energy: Molten Salt Makes It Possible, and Prices Are Falling Fast - Inside Climate News

Sign up to receive our latest reporting on climate change, energy and environmental justice, sent directly to your inbox. Subscribe here. The first thing you see of the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Facility, and you can be miles away, is a light so bright you can’t look directly at it. This sits...

insideclimatenews.org

Claims of preserving jobs may also be misleading.

Directly re-purposing jobs and coal-plant turbines, as proposed for the sodium-reactor program, ignores the public policy that follows these public-works projects.

Organized labor is often awarded bargaining agreements to build & maintain subsidized power plants, and public works. The training programs of these sponsored apprenticeships like ABC & NECA/IBEW are boot camps, designed to wash out poor performance or academic truancy, not re-train old plant operators & coal miners.

It would be more accurately stated that previous coal-plant manpower will likely be humiliated in the style of hell's kitchen, before expelled from the training program, but the number of jobs filled by surviving graduates will be equal to the jobs lost.

Hee, hee! Highly amusing! The plant has barely escaped death and has only just emerged from bankruptcy. At $135/MW-hr, those are really expensive electrons. CCNG? About $28/MW-hr

On Becoming Obsolete: How a High-Tech Solar Plant Found Its Way to Bankruptcy

The 10,000 mirrors arrayed around the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy plant are striking and seem to suggest the concept is on a path to efficient and reliable renewable energy. But, recently, the plant’s operator threw in the towel and filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. So, what went wrong?

jpt.spe.org

Even when operating, they had to use gas to keep the molten salt molten during the night.

And look, 1 billion dollars for a 110MW plant. Which, when you think about it, was really a 55 MW plant since it didn't operate at night. So, about $10 or $20 per watt capital cost. A small combined cycle gas plant would be about $1 per watt. Yeah, great business model there.

Your claim on "public policy" seems a stretch. Reusing existing turbine infrastructure makes too much sense, no one could shelve that via pure politics.

 

[ramsy]

On Becoming Obsolete: How a High-Tech Solar Plant Found Its Way to Bankruptcy

The 10,000 mirrors arrayed around the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy plant are striking and seem to suggest the concept is on a path to efficient and reliable renewable energy. But, recently, the plant’s operator threw in the towel and filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. So, what went wrong?

jpt.spe.org

Wow, did not realize this concentrated solar power (CSP) ended in such a disaster. The WIKI shows other CSP still running, but perhaps not with sodium storage.

"When the plant finally opened in 2015, solar panels had left the CSP technology in the dust in terms of efficiency and cost.

The high tech was obsolete before it was up and running."

Going over budget may be typical for power plant projects, but becoming obsolete before built is sad, since customers bail out in a hurry.

"..The death knell sounded last summer with a catastrophic failure of the molten-salt storage tanks that caused ground contamination and required the removal of the solar tower. The DOE sent a formal default notice in September, followed by NV Energy’s termination of its PPA."

Lets hope sodium-reactor programs can learn from the design failure of this molten salt storage tank, to avoid similar catastrophe.

 

[ramsy]

Your claim on "public policy" seems a stretch. Reusing existing turbine infrastructure makes too much sense, no one could shelve that via pure politics.

Lets hope the coal-industry lobby agrees, and their constituents are happy to recommend the indentured apprenticeship trade schools for nuclear training.

 

[gadfly56]

Lets hope the coal-industry lobby agrees, and their constituents are happy to recommend the indentured apprenticeship trade schools for nuclear training.

Look, the steam side of any such hybrid is going to run just as it's always run. Guys could just walk back into their jobs on that side of it. On the nuclear side, it's going to be new for everyone. I don't get how training programs are some kind of indentured servitude.

 

[ramsy]

Both political and engineering elegance in design is understating sodium reactors that can repurpose coal plants, without nuclear waste, or proliferation risk.

However, when business is sold employees are at the mercy of new regimes.

The new operators may use their own staff, prefer promoting from within, or request bids and contract with any labor organization they want.

If the new regime forgoes mass lay offs, and offers positions to previous employees, it may require a different pay scale, becoming organized, new security, training requirements & drug screens.

People don't just walk back into their jobs.

Regardless of take-over design & engineering elegance, employees that have ownership thru company stock & retirement funds may not want to sell the plant or lose control of their jobs.

Sodium reactor take-overs may need to find the right coal plants, which are not owned by employees, or protected by the coal-industry lobby.

 

[gadfly56]

Both political and engineering elegance in design is understating sodium reactors that can repurpose coal plants, without nuclear waste, or proliferation risk.

However, when business is sold employees are at the mercy of new regimes.

The new operators may use their own staff, prefer promoting from within, or request bids and contract with any labor organization they want.

If the new regime forgoes mass lay offs, and offers positions to previous employees, it may require a different pay scale, becoming organized, new security, training requirements & drug screens.

People don't just walk back into their jobs.

Regardless of take-over design & engineering elegance, employees that have ownership thru company stock & retirement funds may not want to sell the plant or lose control of their jobs.

Sodium reactor take-overs may need to find the right coal plants, which are not owned by employees, or protected by the coal-industry lobby.

People who run coal plants aren't in the business of burning coal. They are in the business of providing electricity. If they find a viable alternative to burning coal, what's their incentive to turn that down? Especially considering the first thing they get to do when the reactor goes hot is to shut down the scrubbers.

 

[drcampbell]

People who own coal mines and operate coal-fired powerplants have an entirely different calculation for economic viability.

 

[ramsy]

People who run coal plants aren't in the business of burning coal. They are in the business of providing electricity. If they find a viable alternative to burning coal, what's their incentive to turn that down? Especially considering the first thing they get to do when the reactor goes hot is to shut down the scrubbers.

Why coal plant workers aren't going green

Biden administration officials have called for shifting coal plant workers to clean energy. But utility trends show that may not be easy to do.

www.eenews.net

Just read this news article on the topic. To prevent the devastation to coal mining communities, electric utilities have become more proactive in repurposing their employees during coal-plant closures.

There may be a glut of retiring coal plants scheduled to be demolished, with employees already transitioned or relocated.

One of the apprenticeship programs is described at the end of the article, with a coal-plant worker transitioned to maintaining wind turbine nacelles.

 

[ramsy]

Tiny Wyoming town chosen last week for demonstration sodium reactor.

In tiny Wyoming town, Bill Gates bets big on nuclear power

In this sleepy Wyoming town that has relied on coal for over a century, a company founded by the man who revolutionized personal computing is launching an ambitious project to counter climate change: A nationwide reboot of nuclear energy technology.

techxplore.com

 

[gadfly56]

Tiny Wyoming town chosen last week for demonstration sodium reactor.

In tiny Wyoming town, Bill Gates bets big on nuclear power

In this sleepy Wyoming town that has relied on coal for over a century, a company founded by the man who revolutionized personal computing is launching an ambitious project to counter climate change: A nationwide reboot of nuclear energy technology.

techxplore.com

I wish them every success.

 

[ramsy]

Molten salt reactor goes to sea.

Norwegians Design Sea Vessel Moved by Molten Salt Reactor​

 

[ggunn]

My parents had a "portable" suitcase record player from the 1950's. It was the size of a very large piece of luggage and was quite heavy (tube powered, no transistors). It would lay flat on the floor with the bass speaker in the front which was covered by two mid-range speakers that could be folded out when the lid was opened (or could be detached and placed wider apart). The phonograph arm would snap onto its resting post for travel. It could play 33-1/3 LP's, 45 singles, and 78 rpm vinyl (and had internal storage for all the various adapters and accessories).

Oh, how times have changed!

ETA: By God, I found it: http://recordplayerphonograph.com/2...tablesuitcase-record-player-gold-color-j0372/
Yes, it was gold.

I have a later version of that same record player somewhere in my junk room. I'll bet it still works.