Possible miswire of dual fuel range, 10-2 vs 10-3 ??

[DBoone]

I normally run whatever I'm getting paid to run. The difference between installing a 120V receptacle for a gas range and running a 30-40 A range circuit can be a little bit of money.


Sounds like this guy cheated himself out a bit of money by not keeping track of what he was supposed to be running.

Growler, somewhat off topic but you mentioned “I run what I’m getting paid to run” so I’m going to segue into a question.

You are are in the South like me and I feel like some methods are probably a lot alike from a Georgia to Mississippi so here goes:

Do you run your NM straight and tight into the box or do you leave a slack loop outside the box.

I don’t think it’s code compliant to leave the slack unless it’s stapled within 8-12 inches of the box, measured along the sheathing. But still, its pretty common here...I do it myself.


What’s it like over in Georgia.... straight and tight... little extra loop

 

[WarrMann]

Growler, somewhat off topic but you mentioned “I run what I’m getting paid to run” so I’m going to segue into a question.

You are are in the South like me and I feel like some methods are probably a lot alike from a Georgia to Mississippi so here goes:

Do you run your NM straight and tight into the box or do you leave a slack loop outside the box.

I don’t think it’s code compliant to leave the slack unless it’s stapled within 8-12 inches of the box, measured along the sheathing. But still, its pretty common here...I do it myself.


What’s it like over in Georgia.... straight and tight... little extra loop

I work in atlanta, and don't leave that that extra bit of wire at the boxes. I also hardly ever run into it. And i do a lot of residential service work.

It seems unnecessary to me. Im not knocking it, to each his own in this industry. And its also not a penny pinching thing for me. Its not that much extra romex in the end. I just haven't found that its to mine or any future electricians advantage to leave the extra bit of wire at every box. Sure it could come in handy 15 years later, but i feel like i have to draw the line somewhere.

I will make an effort to not stuff the holes in my top and bottom plates full though. I've found having a bit of extra room to get my wire into an existing wall without drilling a new hole is a small win when I'm adding an outlet, or running a new switch leg into the ceiling.

This would be an interesting topic to start. "Things we do cause we're nice electricians and want to help out the next guy when he has to deal with our work in the future"

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[JFletcher]

That little wire loop is not for future electricians, it is for you WHEN the drywaller RotoZips the inside of your box. Yeah they, they make metal protection plates for this, but it is more cost and labor to install and remove. Great topic idea though.

The way that I read 334.30 on stapling Romex, the staple has to be within 12 in of the box. A small loop is not against code, and I believe that there has been CMP substantiation of this, shooting down amendments to change this code section.

 

[growler]

Growler, somewhat off topic but you mentioned “I run what I’m getting paid to run” so I’m going to segue into a question.

You are are in the South like me and I feel like some methods are probably a lot alike from a Georgia to Mississippi so here goes:

Do you run your NM straight and tight into the box or do you leave a slack loop outside the box.

I don’t think it’s code compliant to leave the slack unless it’s stapled within 8-12 inches of the box, measured along the sheathing. But still, its pretty common here...I do it myself.


What’s it like over in Georgia.... straight and tight... little extra loop

I run NM straight and tight but I have seen it run with a little slack as you suggest. I don't think it's all that common to leave any slack here..

 

[K8MHZ]

I run NM straight and tight but I have seen it run with a little slack as you suggest. I don't think it's all that common to leave any slack here..

An EC I worked for used to say, "Don't leave a loop, but don't run it like a bow string, either!"

 

[growler]

An EC I worked for used to say, "Don't leave a loop, but don't run it like a bow string, either!"

That's kind of like the sharp bends you will see in some panels. Some people think it looks better but I have always thought it's a waste of time.

When running NM I try to keep it looking straight and neat but doesn't need to look like it's on display at the state fair.:roll:

 

[K8MHZ]

That's kind of like the sharp bends you will see in some panels. Some people think it looks better but I have always thought it's a waste of time.

When running NM I try to keep it looking straight and neat but doesn't need to look like it's on display at the state fair.:roll:

When I do a panel I first ask boss person how they do them. I have had bosses that wanted everything at right angles and the work to look like art work. I have had others tell me just to get it done, it's not a beauty contest, and of course many that wanted something in between.

 

[peter d]

Use deep boxes and make sure everything is pushed into the box as far as possible, and the cut wires problem largely goes away.

 

[ritelec]

It was once allowed for the neutral to also be used as the ground (EGC) in a 3-wire cable.

Splitting hairs.
Was it that the neutral could be used as the ground or the ground could be used as the neutral ??

 

[Little Bill]

Splitting hairs.
Was it that the neutral could be used as the ground or the ground could be used as the neutral ??

It was always that the neutral could be used as a ground, the EGC (ground) was NEVER allowed to be the neutral.
In fact, the only bare neutral that was allowed was from a SE type cable and it had to originate from the main panel and not a subpanel.

 

[LarryFine]

It was always that the neutral could be used as a ground, the EGC (ground) was NEVER allowed to be the neutral.

Correctamundo!

In fact, the only bare neutral that was allowed was from a SE type cable and it had to originate from the main panel and not a subpanel.

Same for NM with an insulated neutral. Any sub-panel required a 4-wire circuit.

 

[Little Bill]

Same for NM with an insulated neutral. Any sub-panel required a 4-wire circuit.

That's not what the code says. You can have a insulated neutral (grounded conductor) from a subpanel. Only a bare neutral of a SE type cable had to come from the main.
Here is the code...

250.140 ex(3)

The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor
is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and
the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.

Notice the comma after the word "insulated" and the word "or". That means everything past that is separate statement.
So it is saying that for the exception to apply the grounded conductor had to be insulated.
Then the "comma" and the word "or" the grounded conductor could be uninsulated and part of a SE cable and the branch circuit had to originate from the service equipment (main).

So everything up to the comma goes together, then everything past the comma goes together. If they meant that every conductor had to be insulated they would have left out the comma and the word "or" making the whole statement as one. Also, they would have needed a second comma after the word "cable" for the statement "branch circuit has to originate at the service equipment" to apply to the whole exception/statement.

As I understand it, the reason that the bare/uninsulated conductor had to come from the main is the bare conductor could come in contact with metallic objects or EGCs, causing unwanted voltage on these and creating a parallel path for neutral current.

 

[JFletcher]

That's not what the code says. You can have a insulated neutral (grounded conductor) from a subpanel. Only a bare neutral of a SE type cable had to come from the main.
Here is the code...



Notice the comma after the word "insulated" and the word "or". That means everything past that is separate statement.
So it is saying that for the exception to apply the grounded conductor had to be insulated.
Then the "comma" and the word "or" the grounded conductor could be uninsulated and part of a SE cable and the branch circuit had to originate from the service equipment (main).

So everything up to the comma goes together, then everything past the comma goes together. If they meant that every conductor had to be insulated they would have left out the comma and the word "or" making the whole statement as one. Also, they would have needed a second comma after the word "cable" for the statement "branch circuit has to originate at the service equipment" to apply to the whole exception/statement.

As I understand it, the reason that the bare/uninsulated conductor had to come from the main is the bare conductor could come in contact with metallic objects or EGCs, causing unwanted voltage on these and creating a parallel path for neutral current.

A distinction with a difference. this is why I always ask people who were asking homework type questions to post the question verbatim, punctuation and all.

Dick's Inbox.

Vs

Dicks in box.

One is a sign, the other is an SNL skit.

 

[LarryFine]

That's not what the code says. You can have a insulated neutral (grounded conductor) from a subpanel. Only a bare neutral of a SE type cable had to come from the main.

I humbly stand corrected.

 

[DBoone]

That little wire loop is not for future electricians, it is for you WHEN the drywaller RotoZips the inside of your box. Yeah they, they make metal protection plates for this, but it is more cost and labor to install and remove. Great topic idea though.

The way that I read 334.30 on stapling Romex, the staple has to be within 12 in of the box. A small loop is not against code, and I believe that there has been CMP substantiation of this, shooting down amendments to change this code section.

Bingo. I like a little extra loop for me in case something happened and I needed to pull a little slack out before make up.

Roto zip zip cuts up a wire, I get carried away and make a mistake and nick a wire. Whatever it may be. So instead of having to cut drywall, fish cable, fix drywall, paint etc and slow down my house I can just pull out a little slack, make up the box and move on.

Its my little safety net


EDIT — a wall with non-drywall covering, something like shiplap or other wood product in my opinion is a good place to leave a little extra wire. Drywall is relatively easy to cut and repair... wood would be expensive and time consuming.



Can someone post the code section about stapling NM at the box. I’m not sure if it says the distance is from the box or if it specifies the distance is measured along the cable.

 

[JFletcher]

Bingo. I like a little extra loop for me in case something happened and I needed to pull a little slack out before make up.

Roto zip zip cuts up a wire, I get carried away and make a mistake and nick a wire. Whatever it may be. So instead of having to cut drywall, fish cable, fix drywall, paint etc and slow down my house I can just pull out a little slack, make up the box and move on.

Its my little safety net



Can someone post the code section about stapling NM at the box. I’m not sure if it says the distance is from the box or if it specifies the distance is measured along the cable.

You quoted the code section in my post. The relevant part of 334.30 is "...and within 300mm (12 in.) of every outlet box..."

As I read that section, as long as there is a staple within 12 in* of the box, you're good.

As you wrote, the other reason for the loop is for your own mistakes... or that of a green helpers.

*Nonmetallic cable going into a single gang clampless box must be stapled within 8in of said box, exception to 314.17 (C).

 

[DBoone]

You quoted the code section in my post. The relevant part of 334.30 is "...and within 300mm (12 in.) of every outlet box..."

As I read that section, as long as there is a staple within 12 in* of the box, you're good.

As you wrote, the other reason for the loop is for your own mistakes... or that of a green helpers.

*Nonmetallic cable going into a single gang clampless box must be stapled within 8in of said box, exception to 314.17 (C).

:slaphead:

Yep the code section was right in front of my face.

 

[micabay]

When it was allowed that grounded conductor needed to be insulated, you could however use type SE cable and use the concentric bare conductor for the grounded conductor - all other wiring methods required insulated neutral.

nothing wrong at that point unless you know the equipment that isn't there yet will require something else. Still not a bad idea to run 4 wire cable and at least 8 AWG to any "range" location, might make it easier on someone down the road if they ever put in a range that has more typical supply requirements. If I were inspector and knew it was for a range but was only seeing 10-2 I would be at least asking questions at rough in, but sort of is nothing to fail until that range that requires a neutral gets connected.

If the appliance were intended to be a cooktop only or an oven only, 10-2 has more of a chance of being acceptable supply cable.

In the US, Ranges, Ovens, and Cooktops are set up to be installed with 120/240VAC circuits. They need both. Some european built machines, such as Bosch Dryers, don't use the Neutral. I pin it to the example my instructor told our class. "The Code says a switch is needed light in every room, but doesn't say you can put every switch inside the garage."

 

[micabay]

It was always that the neutral could be used as a ground, the EGC (ground) was NEVER allowed to be the neutral.
In fact, the only bare neutral that was allowed was from a SE type cable and it had to originate from the main panel and not a subpanel.

Around here (WA State) I see a lot of older homes that have a bare neutral. Old enough they were built just after knob and tube was phased out. But in general, I say the same: Never was code.

 

[Adamjamma]

You quoted the code section in my post. The relevant part of 334.30 is "...and within 300mm (12 in.) of every outlet box..."

As I read that section, as long as there is a staple within 12 in* of the box, you're good.

As you wrote, the other reason for the loop is for your own mistakes... or that of a green helpers.

*Nonmetallic cable going into a single gang clampless box must be stapled within 8in of said box, exception to 314.17 (C).

That is what my first boss used to say to me all the time... First staple is 8 to 12 inches from box... use 8 and inspector will not care how much extra wire you have tucked in the box as he will be happy. Then, for a switch running to a cieling you need one more staple... for an outlet running to the ceiling you need two more staples... otherwise, when drilling a hole through the studs, and bending wire through.. one staple within six inches of the hole to keep the bend proper ... make sure it swings like a truck not trying to cut the corner like a race car...

He was a great boss as thirty years later I still hear him in my ears about cleaning up every day, putting tools away for breaks etc...