Power Conditioning Transformers

[Besoeker]

Won't it lead to any trolling in your presence?..................:lol:

Just stick to the point.

A UPS may be fed from a power conditioner to enhance the battery life.

How?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Just stick to the point.

Don't you see it is in itself trollish in the present context?

 

[Besoeker]

Don't you see it is in itself trollish in the present context?

Two members here have expressed doubt about your claim.
Why don't you explain your reasoning for making it?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Two members here have expressed doubt about your claim.
Why don't you explain your reasoning for making it?

I already explained my reasoning in post #14.Since the members expressed doubt,I sent a email to the concerned company to explain themselves.

But if you want me to explore more based on my own technical knowledge,I am ready.But assure me first that you would support me against any short-tempered members............

 

[Besoeker]

I already explained my reasoning in post #14.

Post #14 is a statement. Not an explanation.

Since the members expressed doubt,I sent a email to the concerned company to explain themselves.

An email to the people who's business it is to sell the kit?
Aren't they bound to say it's the best thing since sliced bread?

But if you want me to explore more based on my own technical knowledge,I am ready.

Fine. Please explain without further prevarication.

 

[Joethemechanic]

How is this thing going to make a prettier sine on the load side of a UPS? The quality of the power on the loas side is really just a function of the inverter in the UPS. (although not all ups units are designed the same) I do believe there are some that pass line ac through during periods of "normal" line power quality.

But anyway, the batteries don't care about a little line noise on the charging end of the UPS. I know some that make the claim that a little ripple in the charging current is good for the batteries (and it is a claim backed up by some evidence)

I would just spec good UPS units that ran off the inverters 24/7 whether incoming power is of good quality or not.

I really don't see how you are going to design a transformer to smooth out noise unless you make it heavy with iron. And then you are compromising your Power Factor. More iron = lower PF.

Anyway, I smell a scam design. So much for engineers having professional ethics huh?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Let's wait for some time.Let that company make some statement.Let us refrain from snap judgments,so characteristic of this country,at least for a while.

 

[Besoeker]

Let us refrain from snap judgments,

Except maybe this from post #14?

A UPS may be fed from a power conditioner to enhance the battery life.

All I'm asking is for you provide a basis for that claim you, yourself already made.
If you can't, that's fine.
Just say so.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Except maybe this from post #14?

Please know difference between proposal and judgment.

All I'm asking is for you provide a basis for that claim you, yourself already made.
If you can't, that's fine.
Just say so.

Read link in post#14.Therein lies the basis for my proposal.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Oh my God,it seems like I get dragooned into a troll.I quit from this thread till I get some information from that company.

 

[Besoeker]

Read link in post#14.Therein lies the basis for my proposal.

Typical Factory ConfigurationThe AVC2 protects UPS operation and gives extended battery life.

Is what it states.
This is how it is explained:

...........................................................
...........................................................
...........................................................

 

[Besoeker]

I quit from this thread till I get some information from that company.

Just remember, when you do, that their business is to sell their product.

 

[Joethemechanic]

I think all you are going to get from them is a glossy sales ad.

And the only thing I have seen as far as transformers go, that smoothed out PQ issues is when I energized another transformer on the line. The added iron in the laminations smooths things out, but the power factor went even farther lagging from charging and then reversing the charge in all that iron.

And what is the purpose of this thing? It's like a solution without a problem. Take care of the PQ issues with a good quality UPS. In fact, we don't even know if there are PQ issues. Has she put a scope on it?

And this is a sewage plant, not a data center, it already probably has a ton of electric motors under light load moving everything into lagging PF. The last thing you want to do is add more useless iron to charge and then reverse charge.

To tell you the truth, I've even seen adding induction motor loads smooth out the sine, and in a sewer plant you have motors that run 24/7 like clarifier drives, blowers for aerators, and drives for bio contact media. I would think the place is one big lagging PF.

 

[K8MHZ]

I don't see how this is possible. The one of the purposes of a UPS is to take cruddy power and deliver clean. The batteries aren't involved unless there isn't enough energy coming in to make the energy going out (+overhead). Are you/they suggesting that by removing momentary draws on the batteries the life is improved measurable? How much?

This doesn't pass the sniff test here. Can someone else explain?

A UPS is not a device to clean power, unless additional components are added.

So long as there is power, the power goes through a transfer relay to the output of the UPS, taking the UPS out of the power circuit. Any 'crud' will just pass through the relay to the output, so long as the transfer relay remains closed on the POCO side. When power drops, the transfer relay opens on the POCO side, switching over to the position that delivers power from a battery fed inverter.

Some units are built with power conditioners, and some units are isolated, meaning the inverters are always the source of the output power and the POCO feed is cut down to the voltage required to charge the batteries. Those will provide some protection, but those features are not required for simple uninterrupted power.

There is some efficiency issues with isolated UPS devices that need to be considered due to the efficiency of the inverters, which will be on all the time, vs. a standard UPS in which the inverters only are used during an outage.

 

[Joethemechanic]

A UPS is not a device to clean power, unless additional components are added.

So long as there is power, the power goes through a transfer relay to the output of the UPS, taking the UPS out of the power circuit. Any 'crud' will just pass through the relay to the output, so long as the transfer relay remains closed on the POCO side. When power drops, the transfer relay opens on the POCO side, switching over to the position that delivers power from a battery fed inverter.

Some units are built with power conditioners, and some units are isolated, meaning the inverters are always the source of the output power and the POCO feed is cut down to the voltage required to charge the batteries. Those will provide some protection, but those features are not required for simple uninterrupted power.

There is some efficiency issues with isolated UPS devices that need to be considered due to the efficiency of the inverters, which will be on all the time, vs. a standard UPS in which the inverters only are used during an outage.

I was trying to remember the proper terminology for the UPS systems. I knew there are some that are straight through devices that more or less have an electronic version of a transfer switch. I think they transfer in about a 1/4 wave.

But then again, this place is a sewage or wastewater plant. I don't see it as having a serious percentage of it's load as computerized. And I really doubt it has PQ issues to begin with.

Maybe, maybe, maybe if there are a lot of pumps running on poorly designed VFDs.

I really think the engineer that got sold on this has egg all over his face.

BTW, I consider banging up salesmen who sell stuff like this as sport lol. I put them in the same category as the people selling PF correction devices for homeowners.

Hey K8MHZ,

Isn't there another UPS that runs as isolated, but should there be a problem they switch to straight through? Or is that pretty much all "isolated UPS" designs?

 

[hurk27]

Single conversion, dual conversion, and dual conversion with bypass, dual conversion is isolated as you are always on the inverter, most dual conversion are full sine wave out most single conversion are modified sine wave out ( other wise known as square wave that some motor loads don't like)

 

[K8MHZ]

I was trying to remember the proper terminology for the UPS systems. I knew there are some that are straight through devices that more or less have an electronic version of a transfer switch. I think they transfer in about a 1/4 wave.

But then again, this place is a sewage or wastewater plant. I don't see it as having a serious percentage of it's load as computerized. And I really doubt it has PQ issues to begin with.

Maybe, maybe, maybe if there are a lot of pumps running on poorly designed VFDs.

I really think the engineer that got sold on this has egg all over his face.

BTW, I consider banging up salesmen who sell stuff like this as sport lol. I put them in the same category as the people selling PF correction devices for homeowners.

Hey K8MHZ,

Isn't there another UPS that runs as isolated, but should there be a problem they switch to straight through? Or is that pretty much all "isolated UPS" designs?

Hurk covered the types of isolated UPS devices.

I was just trying to point out that just because something is a UPS, it's not to be taken for granted that it offers any surge protection or circuit conditioning.

I use basic APS brand UPS devices to back up my computer and radio equipment. They are fast, like one cycle. The only way I can tell there has been an outage is by the beeping of the UPS. Everything connected to it appears to go through a seamless transfer, and that's just using relays.

It does not, however, provide for a TRUE seamless transfer like an isolation style UPS would, which is another advantage to using them.

Generally, the transfer relay design devices (like mine) are going to be much cheaper than an isolation device the same size.

 

[Joethemechanic]

I always figure done properly, you should find a large continuous run load like an aeration blower or a large pump and power it with a synchronous motor adjusting field to get whole plant PF to unity. Everywhere I have ever been that has a system like that has always had a nice pretty sine wave. Although the trend has been for years to use squirrel cage motors for everything. I guess it's all to do with initial costs.

But dinosaurs like me tend to think old school I guess.

 

[Lady Engineer]

Who knew this thread would still be going on.

I end up nixing the power conditioning transformer, because he wasn't looking for surge protection, nor the mitigating type transformer.

I suggested the UPS to him, because it will deliver clean power, uninterrupted power and we can put a TVSS on that panel. He argued there's no such thing as clean power. Ok, now I know what I'm dealing with with him. :dunce:

Anyway, this guy doesn't really know what these transformers do, he just got sold on it because of a rep coming into the office for a visit.

 

[Joethemechanic]

Is the guy that wants to buy this thing an engineer? Or just a regular person?