Prevailing question

Status
Not open for further replies.
peter d said:
Since I'm the sole employee of the company I work for, I get to be all 3 of those. ;)

All kidding aside, I'm glad we don't have companies like that around here. I know it's common in the "hot" states of the south and west. We don't really have enough housing volume to set up companies like that. I worked for an EC that strictly wired new spec homes, and I usually went back to all the ones I roughed to trim them out. If you messed it up, you fixed it!

That's the same way I was trained. You installed in now go back and fix it.
 
wiredit said:
I actually pay my residential electricians piece work on houses and apartments, but they are not allowed to bill me for it until it is signed off by myself or my foreman. Believe me I am a safety nut when it comes to residential because of all the many things that can go wrong.

Aren't you a beacon of hope. Immigrants aren't as big a problem as you are.
 
wiredit said:
I actually pay my residential electricians piece work on houses and apartments, but they are not allowed to bill me for it until it is signed off by myself or my foreman. Believe me I am a safety nut when it comes to residential because of all the many things that can go wrong.
Are these guys employees or sub contractors?
 
wiredit said:
... extreme lack of quality in the residential sector, I believe in part due to illegal immigrants flooding the trade...

I'm not going to really jump on you for this since I don't know where you live and work, but...

In my area I haven't met one immigrant electrician. Most of the illegals (and legals) around here are Mexican, and honestly, in their respective trades they do very good work, similar to what we used to see from Italian masons and tile guys.

/start rant

I have my own take on what killed the quality in this field and it has nothing to do with immigrants of any status. I started bending pipe when I was 12 or thirteen years old under one of the grouchiest masters you can imagine who also happened to be Armenian. There was an absolute right way and tons of wrong ways to do almost anything and he drilled it into me every day. "This is how you strip your wires, this is how you bundle them, this is how you twist them, this is how you trim them, now hand me a wirenut." That's what my training was like day in and day out every summer when I worked with him. Those lessons stuck in my mind to this day, and believe it or not, even knowing I'm underpaid I try to do things the right way.

What forms my take on the changes in our field is my own (somewhat rare) history - I moved to Europe back in 1992 and only returned fifteen years later in 2006 to the trade. What a shock!

1) First off, there's this whole "Git 'er done!" philosophy I see all over the place in every trade. They don't mean "Git 'er done right!" just "Git 'er done!" Slop it in, glue it, screw it and I can't see it from my house. This attitude completely ignores one of the oldest parts of the NEC which is that "All work shall be completed in a workmanlike manner." You won't do anything right if you think it's cool to be a redneck.

2) There are issues with the young generation. From what I see, they tend to be an overly coddled, overly praised bunch of spoiled kids who are too good to have respect for any kind of work ethic that makes demands on them. The few who have their schei? together are visible from 10 miles away while the rest of them are just waiting for a reason to quit.

3) Pay scale. I realize this is a sensitive one for a lot of ECs, but the reality is that when I was growing up, I knew that electricians were one of the highest paid trades. Nowadays, (at least in my area) those of us who are non-union make less than secretaries. How can a guy take pride in the work he does when he can't afford to make ends meet? Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?

4) Self Image. This is what the first three lead up to. If you think of yourself as just another "dime a dozen" electrician, that's what your work will reflect.

/end rant

Take pride in your work. Maybe someday it'll be worth it ;)
 
celtic said:
Sure the individual units are not big deal....but the rest of the project may not be familiar to the average romex roper...including the need for hardhats, workboots, conflicts of trades, etc.

I know of one large apartment complex here that was done by two separate EC's because of the separate nature of the work. One company was a residential production EC that roped the individual units. The other was a large commercial EC that did all the distribution and feeders for the units.
 
PetrosA said:
I'm not going to really jump on you for this since I don't know where you live and work, but...

In my area I haven't met one immigrant electrician. Most of the illegals (and legals) around here are Mexican, and honestly, in their respective trades they do very good work, similar to what we used to see from Italian masons and tile guys.

/start rant

I have my own take on what killed the quality in this field and it has nothing to do with immigrants of any status. I started bending pipe when I was 12 or thirteen years old under one of the grouchiest masters you can imagine who also happened to be Armenian. There was an absolute right way and tons of wrong ways to do almost anything and he drilled it into me every day. "This is how you strip your wires, this is how you bundle them, this is how you twist them, this is how you trim them, now hand me a wirenut." That's what my training was like day in and day out every summer when I worked with him. Those lessons stuck in my mind to this day, and believe it or not, even knowing I'm underpaid I try to do things the right way.

What forms my take on the changes in our field is my own (somewhat rare) history - I moved to Europe back in 1992 and only returned fifteen years later in 2006 to the trade. What a shock!

1) First off, there's this whole "Git 'er done!" philosophy I see all over the place in every trade. They don't mean "Git 'er done right!" just "Git 'er done!" Slop it in, glue it, screw it and I can't see it from my house. This attitude completely ignores one of the oldest parts of the NEC which is that "All work shall be completed in a workmanlike manner." You won't do anything right if you think it's cool to be a redneck.

2) There are issues with the young generation. From what I see, they tend to be an overly coddled, overly praised bunch of spoiled kids who are too good to have respect for any kind of work ethic that makes demands on them. The few who have their schei? together are visible from 10 miles away while the rest of them are just waiting for a reason to quit.

3) Pay scale. I realize this is a sensitive one for a lot of ECs, but the reality is that when I was growing up, I knew that electricians were one of the highest paid trades. Nowadays, (at least in my area) those of us who are non-union make less than secretaries. How can a guy take pride in the work he does when he can't afford to make ends meet? Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?

4) Self Image. This is what the first three lead up to. If you think of yourself as just another "dime a dozen" electrician, that's what your work will reflect.

/end rant

Take pride in your work. Maybe someday it'll be worth it ;)

From what I understand from the guys on this forum is that the wages and benefits between union and non-union are no different or close enough not to worry about. Why is it that you are making $16 per hour when the wage in your area is closer to $30 per hour? Is there something you are not telling us?

Journeyman Scale: $ 29.82
Health & Welfare: 7.20
Pension: 0.00
Annuity: 5.00
Vacation: 1.00
Working Assessments: 5% of Gross Wages
 
cowboyjwc said:
The problem here is a lot of the guys are doing piece work and just aren't as concerened about the quality as they are the quanity.

I stopped one job and called all of the "electricians" together and asked them what they were trying to accomplish. ..... It was one of those companies that had one crew rope the house, a second crew that set finish, and a third crew that trouble shot the house. The guys who roped the house didn't have any reason to worry about quality as the trouble shooting guys would fix it.[/QUOTE]

This is more common than you would think.
 
Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?


Maybe by working so cheap you are hurting others in the trade. I dont think it is the "immigrants".
 
jrannis said:
Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?


Maybe by working so cheap you are hurting others in the trade. I dont think it is the "immigrants".

I say "be all you can be".
If you can actually do the work described above you won't be getting just $16/hr for long.
If you KEEP doing it for $16, then that is on you.
 
Hummmmmm Yummmie

The Davis - Bacon Club Sandwich:
3 slices of toasted white bread
10 slices of extra thick bacon cooked well and drained
1 sliver of avacado
5 tablespoons of anchovie paste
6 cloves of roasted and pealed garlic

Smear avacodo, anchovie and garlic on toasted white bread, and layer with bacon. Serve with a large white Onion and a 16 oz tub of lard - the intent here is to make the onion and the tub of lard look and taste better than the sandwich.

Suggested price $16M - because if you're paying top dollar - the onion and the lard had better be good. :cool: And you get a barely edible sandwich to boot....
 
jrannis said:
Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?


Maybe by working so cheap you are hurting others in the trade. I dont think it is the "immigrants".
Don"t want to work, go home.
 
davis bacon prevailing wage

davis bacon prevailing wage

is different from the CA dept of labor wage but both are still a buarocracy. In my area very,high tech,very industrial the prevailing wage is roughly 17 per hour + benifits open shop and 20 per hour +benifits (don't hold me to that) union. You go 80 miles north to a small town in TN. and the Davis Bacon is 25.55 per hour and unon is a little below that. I will never knock my brothers in the trade either open shop or union but the disparity in this area behooves me.
I do not know exactly how the IBEW sets the scale for this region but I do know how the government does. The g'ment polls local contractors (regardless of the type of work they do) as to what their average wage is and this sets the D&B scale. Our D&B scale here went from 17.55 one year to 12.55 the next roll around. And then to 8.55 the next. Then the g'ment was wondering why we didn't have any qualified people working in the area. I pay well above scale both ways because I try to hire people I do not have to watch 24-7 because I learned a long time ago that 1 22 dollar an hour man was worth 4 times what 2 11 dollars an hour men were
 
Last edited:
In SF union or not it is ~$35 full-journeyman + Bennie's - but if milking the government it is ~$56. Since when they go around asking about the "top wage" there is one guy who also doubles as a brain surgeon it seems. Mean-while it is more cost effective to ship pre-built trailers from WACO TX to educate our children in.... :mad: And pay people $57 an hour to connect them.
 
Last edited:
masterinbama said:
is different from the CA dept of labor wage but both are still a buarocracy. In my area very,high tech,very industrial the prevailing wage is roughly 17 per hour + benifits open shop and 20 per hour +benifits (don't hold me to that) union. You go 80 miles north to a small town in TN. and the Davis Bacon is 25.55 per hour and unon is a little below that. I will never knock my brothers in the trade either open shop or union but the disparity in this area behooves me.
I do not know exactly how the IBEW sets the scale for this region but I do know how the government does. The g'ment polls local contractors (regardless of the type of work they do) as to what their average wage is and this sets the D&B scale. Our D&B scale here went from 17.55 one year to 12.55 the next roll around. And then to 8.55 the next. Then the g'ment was wondering why we didn't have any qualified people working in the area. I pay well above scale both ways because I try to hire people I do not have to watch 24-7 because I learned a long time ago that 1 22 dollar an hour man was worth 4 times what 2 11 dollars an hour men were

The IBEW doesnt "set" the wage. IBEW members elect a negoiation committe, from the membership, to represent them. The committee presents what the membership wants as wages and benefits to contractors, businesses and government bodies. A contract for a specific amount of time, usually in years, is drafted. When the membership finally ratifies it, it becomes the working agreement.
Usually the Davis-Beacon for the region is set by these type of formal agreements.
There was a time when the wages were cast very low due to the acceptace of a "poll" of non-negoiated wages. The payscales were all over the place and averaged the actual wages and benefits to artifical low like you mentioned.
IMO, i believe it is healthy for our country to support keeping electricians and other skilled trades well educated and well paid.
We have some Powerful wanna be Builder type Associations here in Florida that do not see it that way.
Maybe its the developing world mentality they brought with them?
 
jrannis said:
Should I as an electrician getting paid $16/hr in an area where the median home price is over half a million dollars be expected to take responsibility for running a resi addition, or a three-phase commercial pipe job both of which include dealing with the inspectors or should I just be the guy who slaps it in? Should I be terminating the CAT-5s and coax stuff? Should I be the one to call the POCO when I find a problem on their end at a customer's residence? Where do I get to draw the line?


Maybe by working so cheap you are hurting others in the trade. I dont think it is the "immigrants".
Here is what I tell my employees. You are trading time for money.The value of that time is what I am willing to pay and what you are willing to accept.The more valuable you make your time by continuing education and improving your job skills the more I am willing to pay for that time. I am also reselling your time to a customer who will also have a say in what your time is worth.If at any time you feel your time is of more value than what I am compenstating you then you are free to try and sell your time on the open market.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top