Problem with another electrician NEC violations

[JohnJ0906]

What about the two wires under on screw on the devices? IMO that's a major blunder.

Agreed. Some of what is mentioned is just design issues.

I would be more concerned about the multiple wires under a device screw than neutral and ground under the same teminal in the panel.

 

[growler]

Here there is no license requirement, and there are a choice of companies that electricians can use to inspect their work.

I'm sure there are no rules to prevent you from hiring your own inspection company ( your choice ) to perform an inspection of the electrical system.

I think it would be better to get an unbiased third party involved. Get a different inspection company to write up a report on the violations. They will be working for you and you can even point out any violations to the inspector. When you get the report the first place to take it would be to the builder and try to get the situation resolved.

 

[augie47]

I am an electrician for over twenty years. ..........................................................................................
Any caveats or recommendations before I call this guy back here and then write a letter to the AHJ and the BBB? I would prefer to have this guy fix everything on his dime, rather than going the latter route.

My opinion:
With your experience and it being your house, I wouldn't let the guy back in the front door. Point out the defecieicies to whom you wish, then suck it up and starp your tools on..at least that way you will know it's fixed right.
I work a State that allows "homeowner" wiring which unfortunately means "anyone". We get paid about $40 for a "final and hvac" inspection so few inspectors are going to take the time to find some of the items you mentioned and we can only address "violations". Not excusng the inspector here but in the big picture proper testing and licensening is the best answer to such problems. That said, I agree I would bring it to the AHJ's attention as well as the BBB, however, as long as builders/owners are looking for the low dollar electric, we will face these issues

 

[electricmanscott]

I agree with lawnguy. The only real nec violations are the neutral/ground connections and the microwave wireing. Was the Electrican told about the Microwave on the rough? The rest is design issue and simple mistakes. Fix it your self and forget about.

Oh really? Should we just ignore the multiple wires under a screw on the devices?

Does is matter if the hackmaster was told about the micro on rough? Is there a code that allows violations as long as you were not made aware of something by a certain period of time? No there is not.


Like I said, these are things that have been seen. I would bet there are many more issues that are just waiting to be discovered.

None of them are "Simple Mistakes" all of them are a result of someone who has no business doing any of this work.

This lack of concern comming from an "Inspector" is particularly troubling.

 

[wbalsam1]

The "electrician" of record obviously could care less about a thorough connection as per 110.14, or an approved termination method as per 408.41. Moreover, since the sheetrock's already installed, how about stapling methods...? does the hack know how to staple properly?

How smart ya gotta be to know that two conductors under one switch or receptacle screw is not quality work?..

There is a duty and obligation to do code compliant work in this dwelling. If there is a Certificate of Occupancy, the Building Official should rescind it and require the permit applicant to comply with the code, then cause a follow-up inspection (preferably by a competent electrical inspector) prior to re-issuning the C of O. And then this Building Inspector should take a long hard look at what's going on under his/her nose. Not good.

 

[infinity]

I'm sure that the insurance company that has provided the homeowners policy on this house would love to read this thread.:roll:

 

[silverbk]

Agreed. Some of what is mentioned is just design issues.

I would be more concerned about the multiple wires under a device screw than neutral and ground under the same teminal in the panel.

In the original post I point out what is not an NEC violation. We also have in effect here the NYS Residential building code. Which specifically addresses some of what you call design issues. Not for nothing this is not a cheap house, this is a $450K home. I think I am entitled to more than bare minimum.

There are three problems here:

1. Getting my house fixed, Which I am capable of doing

2. Protecting the public from this Hack.

3. Ensuring that this does not happen again, by inform the various AHJs.

Even if this guy is unwilling or not capable of fixing his mistakes by bringing this house up to code. I am am still going to try, because it wastes his time and creates a nuisance for him. Time is money, and if I hit him in the wallet, he might think twice about cutting these corners again.

I used to fight this battle with various electricians that I worked with over the years. I worked with one guy in particular whose claim to fame was that he was fast. He could rough a complete condo in two days by himself. Where I would take three. I showed him many times that if you get one callback, you just lost your profit. For the record I was always fixing his mistakes. 15 years later he still has a reputation of being a hack, and still stuck at the same hack shop, because it's the only place he can survive.

The inspector issue will be much trickier because I am also an Electrician. I have to continue to work in the field with this guy. Granted it is not in a county that I am licensed, but since there is no license requirement here, there is nothing to prevent me from taking work in his territory. He also works for the same company that inspects some of my jobs in the counties I work in.

 

[wbalsam1]

Silverbk: These inspectors are private third-party inspectors working for private companies whose business purpose is to have a contractual arrangement with installers to look after their interests. There are no state-wide regulations that require demonstration of competence or trade familiarity or any precondition for them to go to work in most areas of the state.
There is a slow movement underway in some communities to require proof of certification by Experian or ICC testing agencies, but very little actual activity or follow up.
Many of the 3rd party agencies have no in-house testing at all. A person can, for the most part, become an inspector overnight with no training or experience.
Where the real culpability lies is with the Building Official in the community. This person is appointed by an elected body to ascertain compliance with a mandated regulation, namely the building code of which the NYS Residential Code is part. He/she is ultimately responsible for the electrical inspection, since this inspection is required as a precondition of the issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy. The fact that the Building Official defers this important step to an incompetent inspector working for a private company should be of great concern to the elected officials.:smile:

Your problem has a solution through the court system. Taking this direction will have the effect of "inviting this hack and his hack inspector to the party" so to speak. When the judge slams his gavel down and declares "gross negligence" and awards damages...the party's over.

 

[jrclen]

Time is money, and if I hit him in the wallet, he might think twice about cutting these corners again.

A lot of what you mentioned doesn't sound like just cutting corners, it sounds like lack of knowledge and training. Hack work. It's a shame you had to find this stuff in your brand new home. I live in a state where licenses are not required and inspections in rural areas are a very recent requirement. Good luck.

 

[growler]

There are three problems here:

1. Getting my house fixed, Which I am capable of doing

I'm sure that you are capable of doing your own electrical work but when you start to work on the house you may void any warranty and if something goes wrong ( fire or other damage ) then all you have are two electricians pointing the finger at each other saying, "he did it."

The house did pass inspection, probably not a very good inspection but it did pass. You can't even go around bad mouthing this guy without some sort of proof and even then it's not a good idea. I know of a plumber that has taken a few people to court for Libel and he has won. The fact that he is a hack doesn't make any difference, he is operating within the law.

If you are going after this guy you had better come up with proof that will stand up in court or you may find yourself on the wrong side of the law.
When this guy loses his first customer because you said something about him in public then you had better be ready to back it up.

We get to bad mouth people all day long on a forum because we don't use any names. The guilty get to remain anonymous but when you start in your community that's a different matter.

Be careful. Get a written report from a third party.

 

[brian john]

One of my primary functions I do on a day to day basis is power quality and ground investigations. Number one cause of PQ and grounding issues is electrical wiring errors, the most often heard explanation when I try to explain what is wrong.

From customers But it passed inspection

From the EC It passed inspection.

Neither have a hoot to do with it.

Electrical inspectors CANNOT catch every violation, but the electrician sure can, if they understand or car what they are doing.

In you case and I am sure this has been said.

One check warranty.
Complain to the builder and AHJ.

But what I did when the EC messed up my pool was throw him off the job, discussed the issue with he AHJ and builder and completed the work myself.

 

[dcspector]

From customers But it passed inspection

From the EC It passed inspection.

Neither have a hoot to do with it.

Brian I agree 110% I think too much emphasis is placed on the comment" It passed Inspection" Regardless of passing it still does not make it right. I hear crap all the time when I do a final and catch something someone missed on rough....My comment. I don't care....that does not make it right.

 

[mpd]

I hear alot of contractors use the excuse that is was missed at rough or on plan review and think that is a free pass for a code violation.


I recently passed a house rough and found out after I left the builder was tearing the house apart to move walls, I happen to be back at the same house doing a fire inspection and the builder was doing the re-wiring, needless to say I failed the rough and contacted the electrical contractor to schedule a re-rough

 

[Cavie]

There are some problems here. Sloppy work? Yes. Some code issues? Yes. Life threating? I think not. Not really a big enough issue to start a war over. I have seen much much worse. If you were a plumber you would probily find issuse with his work and not have a clue about the electric or even care. Are all the trusses nailed down correctly? Straps have the proper number of nails in them. Are all the nails holding the plywood down the right size. Think about the guy who buildes a $450,000.00 house in a town with no inspections. Don't loose to much sleep over it. Life goes on.

 

[electricmanscott]

There are some problems here. Sloppy work? Yes. Some code issues? Yes. Life threating? I think not. Not really a big enough issue to start a war over. .

In my opinion you could net be more wrong.

This guy has been ripped off plain and simple and you Cavie as a "Novice Inspector" (quotes intentional and there for a reason) condoning it is a disgrace. Your stand on this is quite telling. Makes one wonder.....

I hope that you get to read this before it is editied.

 

[infinity]

There are some problems here. Sloppy work? Yes. Some code issues? Yes. Life threating? I think not. Not really a big enough issue to start a war over. I have seen much much worse. If you were a plumber you would probily find issuse with his work and not have a clue about the electric or even care. Are all the trusses nailed down correctly? Straps have the proper number of nails in them. Are all the nails holding the plywood down the right size. Think about the guy who buildes a $450,000.00 house in a town with no inspections. Don't loose to much sleep over it. Life goes on.

Whether it was $45,000 or $450,00 or $4,500,000 the buyer has a reasonable assumption that the place was built according to code. Telling him to not to lose any sleep over it is poor advice especially from someone who inspects things for a living. I would have thought that you would have done better giving out advice.

 

[silverbk]

There are some problems here. Sloppy work? Yes. Some code issues? Yes. Life threating? I think not. Not really a big enough issue to start a war over. I have seen much much worse. If you were a plumber you would probily find issuse with his work and not have a clue about the electric or even care. Are all the trusses nailed down correctly? Straps have the proper number of nails in them. Are all the nails holding the plywood down the right size. Think about the guy who buildes a $450,000.00 house in a town with no inspections. Don't loose to much sleep over it. Life goes on.

You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

 

[wbalsam1]

There are some problems here. Sloppy work? Yes. Some code issues? Yes. Life threating? I think not. Not really a big enough issue to start a war over. I have seen much much worse. If you were a plumber you would probily find issuse with his work and not have a clue about the electric or even care. Are all the trusses nailed down correctly? Straps have the proper number of nails in them. Are all the nails holding the plywood down the right size. Think about the guy who buildes a $450,000.00 house in a town with no inspections. Don't loose to much sleep over it. Life goes on.

When you state "sloppy work" or "code issues", "plumbing issues", "truss issues", "nail issues", etc., you're referring to incompetent workmanship, are you not? Now, if there's incompetent workmanship and incompetent inspections, both on the part of the private 3rd party inspector and the building inspector, are you willing to rationalize allowing this "workmanship" and negligence under the idea that "life goes on"?

How are these two ideas connected?

A guy works hard, buys a home for $450,000.00 and its a code nightmare and potential safety hazard, and you in essence tell him to "suck up" and get on with life?.....
I can't laugh this hard....you're killin' me....:grin:

 

[mpd]

cavie, thats a good attitude for an inspector, every homeowner is entitled to a code compliant home, if its wrong, no matter how minor it fails, I always love inspectors at meetings saying they don't fail guys for this violation or that violation, to me thats a joke, find another profession because you are not doing your job

 

[silverbk]

Would you do it like this?

Would you do it like this?

I took some photos because a picture is worth a thousand words. You can access it with this link. I'm interested to hear everyone's comments. I'm sorry I don't have a pic of the switch with two wires under the screw because I repaired it immediately.

http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbk/PhilSHouse

Also upon further inspection: no smoke detector in the attic, GFCI in the hall bathroom also trips the GFCI in the Master bath. So he mixed his lines and loads.