Problem with another electrician NEC violations

Merry Christmas
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silverbk said:
I took some photos because a picture is worth a thousand words. You can access it with this link. I'm interested to hear everyone's comments. I'm sorry I don't have a pic of the switch with two wires under the screw because I repaired it immediately.

http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbk/PhilSHouse

Also upon further inspection: no smoke detector in the attic, GFCI in the hall bathroom also trips the GFCI in the Master bath. So he mixed his lines and loads.
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Just a point of information. Smoke detector locations are not a NEC requirement and having one in the attic is not a fire code requirement at least in Florida. GFI feeding downstreem bathroom recepticals (as long as it is just recepticals) is code compliant. 2nd GFI not required but is added insurance I suppose. Or a waste of money depending on how you look at it.
 
Cavie said:
Just a point of information. Smoke detector locations are not a NEC requirement and having one in the attic is not a fire code requirement at least in Florida. GFI feeding downstreem bathroom recepticals (as long as it is just recepticals) is code compliant. 2nd GFI not required but is added insurance I suppose. Or a waste of money depending on how you look at it.
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This is where the NYS Residential building code takes precedence. Smokes are required in the attic, inside each bedroom, and in a hallway over ten feet. Plus one per level, and another in the boiler room. They must be interconnected. Some Towns and Villages are more restrictive on this, Requiring CO and combination detectors in homes.

What is also code is that if you have a room with two entrances like a hallway or my dining room then two three ways are required. same goes for staircases.

The GFCI issue is faulty wiring, here only one GFCI is actually required, but if you go with extra ones, you should at least wire them correctly. It makes no sense to wire a GFCI from the load side of another GFCI.

As far as the switched outlet in the bedroom. Everyone makes mistakes, but if you check your work, or your helper's work, you will catch it before the homeowner moves in. This is a really stupid thing to get a callback on.

There is also something called pride in your work and the standards of the trade. Two things that have seriously declined over the years.

Years ago I worked for a shop in Local 3, run by two of the biggest hacks around. These guys wired condos in a very tight residential market, and cut every corner in the book. They were stingy with the staples and refused to buy screws, pvc glue or anything else they could steal from other trades. Even these guys did better work than this hack. Even these guys saw the value in wiring a house that the people would like and find convenient. It was these guys that taught me to test everything in the house before you leave. The 20 minutes you spend is a lot cheaper than the callback.

As far as this being a no license county, WTF, so people shouldn't live up here? We should just put up with shoddy work? An unlicensed electrician is still an electrician and should be held to the same standard. They are doing the same work and have the same obligation to the customer as someone with a license.

I just want the guy to come back and fix his mistakes.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Like I said, the EC probably planned for a range hood only. You ended up with a microwave on that circuit because either you or the builder decided to add the microwave/hood combination after the rough. This is either the builder's fault, and the EC's fault or just the EC's fault. Did you check that outlet and find it is indeed on the same circuit as the lighting? It's possible it's separate but on the same phase as the kitchen lights, hence the dimming upon start. Based on how you described the 2-wires under the same screw at switch problem, I wonder if you're describing this issue as accurately.
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The outlet is on a 15 amp lighting circuit with my kitchen lights. Even if it was added after the rough, it is still the electrician's job to get the appropriate circuit installed. If he bid on supplying a hood, then he should have charged for an extra. To finish the house, and install a 1900 box with an outlet inside what is obviously a microwave cabinet is inexcusable. Thinking back, the builder already had the cabinets ordered, before I got involved with deal. If the EC had a set of kitchen plans with elevations for a microwave then he's at fault and has to fix it.

There were two wires under the screw, but I fixed it. This was before I realized I would be fixing a lot more things in this house.
 
celtic said:
While I certainly do sympathize with the OP....I have one quesion:

What resolution do you seek?

(This would apply to all percieved deficinecies including: plumbing, HVAC, finishes, etc)
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silverbk said:
I just want the guy to come back and fix his mistakes.
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Is that what you really want? (That guy back?)
 
silverbk said:
What is also code is that if you have a room with two entrances like a hallway or my dining room then two three ways are required. same goes for staircases.
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NOT TRUE. For staircases, there is a minimum number of risers required before a set of 3-ways makes it cheaper to install a 3-way set.

Consider yourself lucky the light switch for your diningroom is actually IN the diningroom. Because code allows it to be anywhere inside the house, like in your bedroom.

The GFCI issue is faulty wiring, here only one GFCI is actually required, but if you go with extra ones, you should at least wire them correctly. It makes no sense to wire a GFCI from the load side of another GFCI.
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Makes no sense, but is not faulty wiring or a code violation.

As far as the switched outlet in the bedroom. Everyone makes mistakes, but if you check your work, or your helper's work, you will catch it before the homeowner moves in. This is a really stupid thing to get a callback on.
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Stupid yes. Dangerous, no. Many people HIRE electricians to make the switched outlet UNswitched. If a computer or a clock was going to be located there, it won't be used.

There is also something called pride in your work and the standards of the trade. Two things that have seriously declined over the years.
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At least you admit it.
 
silverbk said:
The outlet is on a 15 amp lighting circuit with my kitchen lights. Even if it was added after the rough, it is still the electrician's job to get the appropriate circuit installed. If he bid on supplying a hood, then he should have charged for an extra. To finish the house, and install a 1900 box with an outlet inside what is obviously a microwave cabinet is inexcusable. Thinking back, the builder already had the cabinets ordered, before I got involved with deal. If the EC had a set of kitchen plans with elevations for a microwave then he's at fault and has to fix it.

There were two wires under the screw, but I fixed it. This was before I realized I would be fixing a lot more things in this house.
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The missing microwave circuit, like I said, is a violation. I could see in today's market the builder, facing sluggish sales, deciding AFTER the electrical bid, to add the unit to each house. I could see the builder balk at the EC's request for additional wiring. I could see them cutting a deal: "Put them on the existing circuit, and I'll pay 100 bucks each. IF a customer complains or you get bagged, I'll pay for the extra circuit." I'm not excusing the EC or saying it's right. It is what it is.
 
Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

The photo album he posted shows multiple switches which are both backstabbed and utilize the screws. NOT one picture of 2-wires under one screw.

silverbk said:
I fixed it. My wife wanted a dimmer in the dining room.
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Well consider yourself lucky you didn't have to spring for a 3-way dimmer. :grin:
 
"As far as this being a no license county, ---, so people shouldn't live up here? We should just put up with shoddy work? An unlicensed electrician is still an electrician and should be held to the same standard."

Your going to get hackers.Is he really an electrician ?A license stopps what you have now.The ahj would be able to pressure him to fix.He is likely to already been paid at closing time.I do think he should fix but good luck
 
mdshunk said:
I take a sort of sick pleasure in finding violations in work that recently passed inspection. When something needs to be done about it, which is rather seldom in comparison to the number of violations found, my first call is normally to the inspection agency. I like to talk to the particular inspector who finaled the work if that's known to me. Part of the fat-head syndrome.
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I'm a municipal inspector and this community allows 3rd party inspection agencies to work within its boundaries and I follow around and check on their work. Each and every time I run into a snag with poor installers and poor inspections I call a meeting with all parties and I point blank ask the contractor how it is that the code violation took place and then I ask the inspector how it was overlooked. This goes a long ways towards taking care of any potential for future problems, since no one really likes all the embarassment. :smile:
 
I think all of you great guys in areas with no licensing should all move to Michigan, where we have great licensing rules and regulations.

Maybe I could find a buyer for my house then.:)
 
Silverbk,

I understand your fustrations but you have to get your facts straight before taking any action.

In NYS Residential code Section R317: Smoke Alarms and Automatic Sprinkler Systems:

R317.1 Single-and multiple station smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:

1. In each sleeping room

2. Outside of each seperate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the bedrooms.

3. On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and cellars, but not including crawl spaces and unhabitable attics.

Nowhere does it mention boiler rooms or hallways over ten feet.

NYS Residential Code E3803 Lighting Outlets

E3803.3 Additional Locations At LEAST ONE wall switched controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways...where lighting outlets are installed in interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level to control the lighting outlet where the stairway has 6 or more risers.

Where is the 3-way requirement for halls 10 feet or more?

When I had my business, I did alot of work for a large tract home builder. I did everything the " right " way, dedicated circuit for the fridge, 3 small appliance branch circuits, dedicated circuit for each bathroom, switched receptacles on the wall where the bed is to be located... etc.

I am no longer an electrical contractor.

As a contractor you have a responsibility to your family, men, and your business to make a profit. If the builder wants the bare minimum and it meets NYS residential code, thats what he gets, PAY me to do the other things you talked about.

There are actual violations there. Make sure you have references before you do anything, or just fix them yourself. Most of the issues you have noted are design issues, not code issues and should be taken up with the builder.


Joe Villani
 
lpelectric said:
I'm a municipal inspector and this community allows 3rd party inspection agencies to work within its boundaries and I follow around and check on their work. Each and every time I run into a snag with poor installers and poor inspections I call a meeting with all parties and I point blank ask the contractor how it is that the code violation took place and then I ask the inspector how it was overlooked. This goes a long ways towards taking care of any potential for future problems, since no one really likes all the embarassment. :smile:
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3RD party inspectors are likely to be a conflict of interest.Iam sure some are the finest that money can buy.
 
I spoke with the builder today and here is the solution we agreed upon.

He read these threads and doesn't want the guy back any more. He has agreed to hire another electrician who we both know and trust to fix the violations and shoddy work, at his expense. He also agreed to have the new electrician get the work inspected by a different inspection agency.

Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
silverbk said:
I spoke with the builder today and here is the solution we agreed upon.

He read these threads and doesn't want the guy back any more. He has agreed to hire another electrician who we both know and trust to fix the violations and shoddy work, at his expense. He also agreed to have the new electrician get the work inspected by a different inspection agency.

Thanks for all the suggestions.
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That's good news, but you still have a bone to pick with the original inspection agency. I'd get the AHJ involved. On the one hand you have a sloppy electrical contractor, and on the other, a complicit inspection service. It took 2 to tango.
 
Glad to hear you have a reputable GC.Would be a good idea to make a list.Not sure if i would waste time on the inspector that is blind but would run his name down any chance i could.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
That's good news, but you still have a bone to pick with the original inspection agency. I'd get the AHJ involved. On the one hand you have a sloppy electrical contractor, and on the other, a complicit inspection service. It took 2 to tango.
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Silverbk: I think the above suggestion makes a good 2nd step. :smile:
 
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