'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[iwire]

What is so scasrry is that when a person hires an electrical he is doing so with the trust that it will be a quality and correct installation. The I get the privilege to point out the violations do be this so called licensed electrician. How is the customer to know since he is licensed a licensed electrician.

The same can be said of electrical engineers, when a client hires an electrical engineer how do they know they have chosen one that will produce the best design, or even a safe design?

Like growler I support electrical licensing but fully realize that a license is really no proof that they are good at their job.

 

[ActionDave]

The same can be said of electrical engineers, when a client hires an electrical engineer how do they know they have chosen one that will produce the best design, or even a safe design?

Like growler I support electrical licensing but fully realize that a license is really no proof that they are good at their job.

There's a whole lot of truth right there.....electrical license, engineer license, medical license....none of them really matter if you don't care about the the work you do.

 

[mbrooke]

If it is one thing that I have been made well aware of is to never assume that all licensed electricials are the same. I have been continually amaised of those that actually don't understand the actual reasons as to why they are required to do what is required.
I have seen handymen who are more cvompitent that some licensed electrician that I have run across over the year. But if I was to advise someone it definitely would be to get a reputable licensed electrician.
I redid some wiring for a friend a lighting circuit with a 20at breaker feeding a out building via underground pvc with#12/2 w/ egc feeding a switch that then feed and overhead light with #14/4 w/EGC nm. The #12/2 w/grd when on to feed a barn some 75' away. For lighting. I never checked but I would venture to say that the lights there were wired with #14 nm and I would also like to guess that is also an outlet and how it is wired.
This licensed electrician who thought that a tap rule would apply I guess. I pointed this out to the owner even though not dangerous that it violated the code. It goes back to the integrity of the licensed electrician.

What if I told you this licensed electrician was smarter then the rest of us? What if its not integrity but actually having common sense?

What would strip a guy of a license here in the US is actually code complaint in almost every country on earth. Perfect example: in Canada I can legally load #14 NM with 20amps of electric heat and put it on a 25amp circuit breaker. If I did that here I would fail inspection with everyone telling me I have a dangerous fire hazard while up north homes remain standing.

 

[romex jockey]

What if i told you the NEC states it hails from the IEC on it's cover, (since '02 iirc) ?
One dwarfs the other, yet the lesser rarely acknowledges the larger contingent.....



What if i told you a Bizillion $$$ of manufacturing marketing makes the call , and you and i are simply left to howl away in the ascii wilderness......?



What if i told you any level of academics ,experience , licensure or certification are mere pestilence in their presence?


What if i told you your next post will most likely parrot what you've been conditioned to repeat , because critical thinking is no longer required where chinese water torture marketing tactics proliferate your professional existence ?


How would you go about calibrating the trades intergrity meter in face of the above?

~RJ~

 

[mbrooke]

What if i told you the NEC states it hails from the IEC on it's cover, (since '02 iirc) ?
One dwarfs the other, yet the lesser rarely acknowledges the larger contingent.....



What if i told you a Bizillion $$$ of manufacturing marketing makes the call , and you and i are simply left to howl away in the ascii wilderness......?



What if i told you any level of academics ,experience , licensure or certification are mere pestilence in their presence?


What if i told you your next post will most likely parrot what you've been conditioned to repeat , because critical thinking is no longer required where chinese water torture marketing tactics proliferate your professional existence ?


How would you go about calibrating the trades intergrity meter in face of the above?

~RJ~

Mr. Jockey, I believe you. Everything you say is true, everything.

 

[templdl]

The same can be said of electrical engineers, when a client hires an electrical engineer how do they know they have chosen one that will produce the best design, or even a safe design?

Like growler I support electrical licensing but fully realize that a license is really no proof that they are good at their job.

That's for sure. I even had to educate one from the FAA regarding some transformers that I was providing for an airport.

 

[templdl]

What if I told you this licensed electrician was smarter then the rest of us? What if its not integrity but actually having common sense?

What would strip a guy of a license here in the US is actually code complaint in almost every country on earth. Perfect example: in Canada I can legally load #14 NM with 20amps of electric heat and put it on a 25amp circuit breaker. If I did that here I would fail inspection with everyone telling me I have a dangerous fire hazard while up north homes remain standing.

You are saying that our standards are too strict and should be loosened up?

 

[templdl]

What if i told you the NEC states it hails from the IEC on it's cover, (since '02 iirc) ?
One dwarfs the other, yet the lesser rarely acknowledges the larger contingent.....



What if i told you a Bizillion $$$ of manufacturing marketing makes the call , and you and i are simply left to howl away in the ascii wilderness......?



What if i told you any level of academics ,experience , licensure or certification are mere pestilence in their presence?


What if i told you your next post will most likely parrot what you've been conditioned to repeat , because critical thinking is no longer required where chinese water torture marketing tactics proliferate your professional existence ?


How would you go about calibrating the trades intergrity meter in face of the above?

~RJ~

If you say so.

 

[peter d]

You are saying that our standards are too strict and should be loosened up?

He's saying that there are other codes like the CEC, IEC and British Standards (BS) that are less restrictive than ours, yet don't cause the problems that American electricians think they would cause.

That being said, I think the NEC is a good code overall if you remove the AFCI rules and other rules that cater to unqualified people (like ballast disconnects and common disconnects for MWBC's.) The NEC is taking a huge credibility hit for pushing AFCI's as hard as it is.

 

[mbrooke]

You are saying that our standards are too strict and should be loosened up?

To strict in some areas to loose in others, many detached from the laws of physics. In the end we waste more material while having greater risks.

 

[mbrooke]

He's saying that there are other codes like the CEC, IEC and British Standards (BS) that are less restrictive than ours, yet don't cause the problems that American electricians think they would cause.

That being said, I think the NEC is a good code overall if you remove the AFCI rules and other rules that cater to unqualified people (like ballast disconnects and common disconnects for MWBC's.) The NEC is taking a huge credibility hit for pushing AFCI's as hard as it is.

Exactly my point. :thumbsup: #14 restricted to 15 amps has nothing to do with homes bursting into flames at 20amps like most have been lead to believe, in reality its to protect unqualified personnel from ignorant DIY screw ups.

 

[mivey]

One thing that I have always uderstood is to never intentionally overload a circuit with the expectation that a breaker will trip. This often happens with a holiday celebration when too many crockpots are plugged in with the expectation that, don't worry as the breaker we I'll trip on overload. And to never intentionally short circuit with the expectation that as breaker will trip.
The key word is intentional as now you are expecting a breaker to respond which it. I' m not saying that a breaker is unreliable because they are. But when a device downstream internationally causes a short circuit to for a breaker to trip that concerns me.

I see in the patent that he also proposes an in-line fuse with the shorting circuit so that it will remove the short if the breaker doesn't clear. I assume he has considered fault interrupting capability, perhaps in concert with the limiting resistor.

 

[user 100]

The same can be said of electrical engineers, when a client hires an electrical engineer how do they know they have chosen one that will produce the best design, or even a safe design?

Like growler I support electrical licensing but fully realize that a license is really no proof that they are good at their job.

Another side bar to this is when many assume that since someone is an electrician that are automatically qualified to tackle any job.Many guys who do almost exclusively residential (my end) don't have the first clue about switch gear and can't bend conduit to save their life , just as there are many veteran pipe and wire journeymen who have complained that some residential work is just as demanding physically demanding as comm/indust and a few who can't even figure out a 4 way switch (have actually seen this one in a ex union guy-he didn't last long roping houses and yes, he loved to take breaks and yes, he thought he was god). Differences don't make any of us a bad wireman, we just have our specialties. The old refrain that goes: "Its all the same- power comes in through one wire and leaves on the other"- doesn't apply.

 

[mivey]

As I understand we already need to splice all 3.

Not all within the same connector.

I doubt after refinement they would be much bigger than wagos.

I disagree.

Unless you using a pancake box there is plenty of room with the number of wires always being the limiting factor.

Seems like to me this device adds more interconnecting wiring.

What extra connections? :blink:

For example: We would not longer have two neutral conductors under a wire nut but now have to bring in a hot and ground to the connector as well.

What extra labor? Cost might be an issue, but it would be a lot cheaper then AFCIs.

More connections & interconnect wiring = more labor

True, it might, but I doubt that would be a disaster or take more time.

I disagree. The more complex, the more time consuming. Just the way it is.

?

See neutral example above

By how much, if at all? Break open a duplex receptacle, there is a lot of empty space inside.

Maybe for some brands. Compare a GFI receptacle with a normal receptacle. It is simply going to take some real estate.

Last I checked all new wiring has an EGC.

And?

You mean installing electricians would require higher standards of instantiation Last I checked an open EGC is a danger and a code violation.

Still dependent on a secondary protection device and path. That increases failure probability.

Perhaps, but then I could argue some of the above concerns to.

I prefer a higher standard at the front line rather than supervising a lower standard.

But look at like this, a thermal sensor takes into account all contingencies where as a better connector will not.

Except the contingency that the same idiots will be connecting this new device.

Well of course, its a prototype. I guess you have never seen what your desk top computer or tablet looked like in its developing stages:

Better than that, I have built one in a lab using breadboards and IC components.

There is an old rule: you can't get something for nothing. I'm thinking the sacrifice will include space.

 

[mivey]

Its not an intentional short circuit. Its through a current limiting resistor, enough to trip a GFCI. Concept works fine for 3 light GFCI testers as they seem to be legal to sell.

Not sure the patent limited that to a GFCI. If it did then a lot of connections would be left out and that kind of defeats the whole purpose.

 

[mivey]

:happyno: Does this contain electronics?:

Yeah, nothing bulky about that!

In any case, code already requires GFCIs in most locations in a dwelling, so this device can just piggy back off of them.

Say what?:?

 

[mivey]

Would a thermal cutout help when the receptacle ages and plugs are held so loosely they keep falling out?

Or when the failure has nothing to do with the load plugged into the receptacle.

Statistically, almost all installations are not brand new, so any code change is not going to help much for decades to come. A safety inspection legally required for every sale with mandatory corrections would catch far more. An insurance discount for inspections every 5-10 years between sales would catch even more.

See Don's posts about the net value.

 

[mivey]

I took my van to the place that does the city's police vehicles, sounded like a good idea. It wasn't. :happysad:

Probably low bidder or had some prior relationship.

 

[ggunn]

That's for sure. I even had to educate one from the FAA regarding some transformers that I was providing for an airport.

FWIW, I am an electrical engineer, and I learn from master electricians all the time. I welcome the opportunity to take advantage of their different perspective and the depth of their knowledge on code issues. They learn something from me from time to time as well.

An adversarial relationship between electricians and engineers helps no one.

 

[mbrooke]

Not all within the same connector.

And how would that be more difficult or problematic?

I disagree.

The laws of physics limit the minimum size to how much? Any unit of measurement you choose is fine.

Seems like to me this device adds more interconnecting wiring.

Ok, where do you see more wires other than the typical neutral, ground, hot in those vids?

For example: We would not longer have two neutral conductors under a wire nut but now have to bring in a hot and ground to the connector as well.

So your saying we only splice neutrals in boxes but leave hots and grounds floating about?

More connections & interconnect wiring = more labor

I somehow thing you don't understand the concept.

I disagree. The more complex, the more time consuming. Just the way it is.

How is internal complexity equate to installation complexity?

Maybe for some brands. Compare a GFI receptacle with a normal receptacle. It is simply going to take some real estate.

GCI does not take the space up of a GFCI. Your making assumptions.

And?

So I take it you now disregard your original example? Im ok with that

Still dependent on a secondary protection device and path. That increases failure probability.

So? Might as well stop using OCPDs and EGCs as they must all work correctly to prevent an appliance from becoming live.

I prefer a higher standard at the front line rather than supervising a lower standard.

Glowing connections have been known to occur even in professionals installations. But I like you train of thought. In a perfectly wired system done by professionals we can skip the OCPDs as no ground fault will ever occur in the branch circuit wiring.

Except the contingency that the same idiots will be connecting this new device.

True there is always that.

Better than that, I have built one in a lab using breadboards and IC components.

Which evolved from vacuum tubes. Very good you agree that all human progress looks like crap at first and get refined via research and experience.

There is an old rule: you can't get something for nothing. I'm thinking the sacrifice will include space.

But how much space?