'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[user 100]

BTW, in regards to inconvenient truth you still haven't answered Tony's question....


http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170744&page=45&p=1666769#post1666769

Sorry, but iwires "truth" isn't inconvenient. A simple google search of the terms rcds and nuisance tripping would seem to suggest that this indeed can be an issue across the pond. I admittedly didn't read every single post by British sparkies to conclusively decide that they are more prone to nuisance tripping, (there are obviously more details to every episode) but apparently it does happen from time to time. The English still don't seem to have anywhere near the issues with rcds like we have with afcis.

 

[mbrooke]

Sorry, but iwires "truth" isn't inconvenient; its a fact.

Its not fact, he has not provided a single detailed source to back up his claims nor has he ever worked with electrical systems over seas to make a statement holding weight in this regard. In fact when Tony confronts Iwire, he simply ignores him, and its not the first time either. Iwire has openly admitted his statement was "thin" but continues to discredit someone having first hand experience:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170069&page=4&p=1654029#post1654029

A simple google search of the terms rcds and nuisance tripping would seem to suggest that this indeed can be an issue across the pond.

Of course they trip when there is a fault on the installation. Otherwise they do not, tripping for a fault is not considered nuisance tripping.

I admittedly didn't read every single post by British sparkies to conclusively decide that they are more prone to nuisance tripping, (there are obviously more details to every episode) but apparently it does happen from time to time. The English still don't seem to have anywhere near the issues with rcds like we have with afcis.

Because an RCD is exactly like a GFCI: they look for imbalance and only that. AFCIs can not defernitate between normal and abnormal current waveforms so in that regard we can define AFCIs as prone to nuisance tripping.

 

[user 100]

Its not fact, he has not provided a single detailed source to back up his claims nor has he ever worked with electrical systems over seas to make a statement holding weight in this regard. In fact when Tony confronts Iwire, he simply ignores him, and its not the first time either. Iwire has openly admitted his statement was "thin" but continues to discredit someone having first hand experience:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170069&page=4&p=1654029#post1654029

He wasn't discrediting our british counterpart. He was only expressing his opinion with the best knowledge he had available to him, and he did concede that it was thin. Nothing wrong with what he did at all. Saying that a certain type ocpd is superior and is always working correctly because it only responds to a legitimate fault is stretching it a little because it may not differentiate because a harmless condition and a truly hazardous one, and if it trips due to harmless electronic leakage, it is nuisance tripping-there is no two ways about.

Imo, the British have a very good and safe system-there are some things that we could probably learn from them, but I just don't feel that level of protection is right for the mains at a home-we're just going to have agree to disagree on that one.

 

[mbrooke]

He wasn't discrediting our british counterpart. He was only expressing his opinion with the best knowledge he had available to him, and he did concede that it was thin. Nothing wrong with what he did at all. Saying that a certain type ocpd is superior and is always working correctly because it only responds to a legitimate fault is stretching it a little because it may not differentiate because a harmless condition and a truly hazardous one, and if it trips due to harmless electronic leakage, it is nuisance tripping-there is no two ways about.

Regardless, threads latter he still maintains the same stance that they nuisance trip when installed correctly:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170744&page=44&p=1666741#post1666741

Tony has asked him yet again to explain further, and knowing Iwire cant back up his claim he runs.

Imo, the British have a very good and safe system-there are some things that we could probably learn from them, but I just don't feel that level of protection is right for the mains at a home-we're just going to have agree to disagree on that one.

In so far I hear the concerns and they are valid taking out a whole home is considered undesirable. If electricians feel this will not work out, offering a sub main solution might not be a good idea then.

In any case individual GFCI/GFP for each 120 volt general use circuit would have incredibly enhanced safety.

 

[user 100]

Regardless, threads latter he still maintains the same stance that they nuisance trip when installed correctly:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170744&page=44&p=1666741#post1666741

Tony has asked him yet again to explain further, and knowing Iwire cant back up his claim he runs.

And he was right. They can and will do so more often than a standard ocpd, and whatever type of ocpd someone has at their main, or even on a branch circuit, nuisance tripping of almost any kind is on its face, unacceptable. Something can be very advanced and have lots of bells and whistles, but if it trips when a lot of otherwise safe string electronic devices is put on the circuit, or when a compressor kicks on because it doesn't agree with some waveform or signature or whatever, to most electricians its no good.

When that tv works at grandmas plugged in to the old t/p rec, but trips your ocpd for no real reason, her wiring is fine and your state of the art ocpd on the other hand is probably a lemon. Whatever we do, we need to get all the bugs worked out before we dive in head first.

 

[mbrooke]

And he was right. They can and will do so more often than a standard ocpd, and whatever type of ocpd someone has at their main, or even on a branch circuit, nuisance tripping of almost any kind is on its face, unacceptable.

So you mean to tell me GFCI and or RCDs trip on conditions other then imbalance?

Something can be very advanced and have lots of bells and whistles, but if it trips when a lot of otherwise safe string electronic devices is put on the circuit,

Your thinking AFCIs...

or when a compressor kicks on because it doesn't agree with some waveform or signature or whatever, to most electricians its no good.

Ok, obviously you have no clue how a GFCI or RCD operates. :happyno: Tell me how current inrush constitutes a current imbalance? There was even a thread on ET today about that:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfir-trips-esspresso-machine-118482/#post2149441



http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfir-trips-esspresso-machine-118482/#post2150265

When that tv works at grandmas plugged in to the old t/p rec, but trips your ocpd for no real reason, her wiring is fine and your state of the art ocpd on the other hand is probably a lemon. Whatever we do, we need to get all the bugs worked out before we dive in head first.

So your telling me that GFCIs and RCDs in 2015 have not had the bugs worked out.

 

[user 100]

So you mean to tell me GFCI and or RCDs trip on conditions other then imbalance?




Your thinking AFCIs...



Ok, obviously you have no clue how a GFCI or RCD operates. :happyno: Tell me how current inrush constitutes a current imbalance? There was even a thread on ET today about that:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfir-trips-esspresso-machine-118482/#post2149441



http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfir-trips-esspresso-machine-118482/#post2150265





So your telling me that GFCIs and RCDs in 2015 have not had the bugs worked out.

The point of my post was that whatever ocpd, be it afci, rcd, gfci, or any other, nuisance tripping cannot be tolerated, and you are more likely to get that with those methods. Of course in 2015 we have the bugs worked out for gfci and rcd, but they are still more likely to cause those nuisance trips than a standard ocpd. If we're going to try for something else we need something that won't be guaranteed to cause issues .

I'm looking at this from a big picture perspective-we can't start installing things in customers homes that may not play well with existing accessories, the last 15 years should have taught us something about that. When will install a service at a customers home, we should not have to return to troubleshoot a phantom that may not even pose any risk. That kind of stuff costs us time and money and inconveniences customers.

 

[mbrooke]

The point of my post was that whatever ocpd, be it afci, rcd, gfci, or any other, nuisance tripping cannot be tolerated, and you are more likely to get that with those methods. Of course in 2015 we have the bugs worked out for gfci and rcd, but they are still more likely to cause those nuisance trips than a standard ocpd. If we're going to try for something else we need something that won't be guaranteed to cause issues .

Of course nuisance tripping cant be tolerated, but even with one GFCI or GFP breaker per circuit the only time a current imbalance will be seen is during a code violation. Saying a GFCI is more likely to nuisance trip is trivial,
millions of GFCIs are in service today and they trip only when an actual problem arises.

I remember once Iwire said a deli in a supermarket chain was intermittently tripping the GFCIs. The owners wanted him to remove them claiming nuisance tripping, but as it turned out there was a known issue with the control boards inside the meat slicers. The manufacture sent out new boards and the issue went away.

Do old appliances like Fridges trip GFCIs? You bet. However in any new appliance or wiring tripping is automatically a sign of a problem.

I'm looking at this from a big picture perspective-we can't start installing things in customers homes that may not play well with existing accessories, the last 15 years should have taught us something about that. When will install a service at a customers home, we should not have to return to troubleshoot a phantom that may not even pose any risk. That kind of stuff costs us time and money and inconveniences customers.

As far as I know GFCI breakers have been installed in homes for 30 years, as well as receptacles doing feed through. In so far none of these devices trip without reason, and none of them are immature. They are proven.

Granted you have treadmills that trip GFCIs, and I will agree with you half your home going down for any reason is note worthy, but GFCI/GFP today does not trip without a reason.

Had the NEC simply mandated 50ma and under GFP at each branch circuit origin this would not only have given head room for leaky electronics and long runs, but provided the same if not better protection then AFCIs do at lower cost and no nuisance tripping. This is why I am so vocal, because in truth an AFCI is nothing more then a re-branded GFCI breaker and solely for marketing purposes. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[user 100]

Of course nuisance tripping cant be tolerated, but even with one GFCI or GFP breaker per circuit the only time a current imbalance will be seen is during a code violation. Saying a GFCI is more likely to nuisance trip is trivial,
millions of GFCIs are in service today and they trip only when an actual problem arises.

I remember once Iwire said a deli in a supermarket chain was intermittently tripping the GFCIs. The owners wanted him to remove them claiming nuisance tripping, but as it turned out there was a known issue with the control boards inside the meat slicers. The manufacture sent out new boards and the issue went away.

Do old appliances like Fridges trip GFCIs? You bet. However in any new appliance or wiring tripping is automatically a sign of a problem.

Gfci breakers are proven but to this day there are some things they don't play nice with. A gfci tripping is usually, but not always, a guaranteed sign of a problem-just like anything else they are not fail safe. I will agree that refrigerators don't trip these things nearly to the degree that they did 30 or so years ago.

 

[mbrooke]

Gfci breakers are proven but to this day there are some things they don't play nice with. A gfci tripping is usually, but not always, a guaranteed sign of a problem-just like anything else they are not fail safe. I will agree that refrigerators don't trip these things nearly to the degree that they did 30 or so years ago.

Those devices would generally work better on 30 and 50ma gfp rather then 5ma. The way I see it these should have been mandated for general use circuits:

 

[user 100]

Those devices would generally work better on 30 and 50ma gfp rather then 5ma. The way I see it these should have been mandated for general use circuits:

Yeah, whatever we do, if at all possible lets keep those nuisance trips to a minimum. On totally unrelated note, I think that the gfi plug thread may be about to be closed-check it out.:lol:

 

[mbrooke]

Yeah, whatever we do, if at all possible lets keep those nuisance trips to a minimum. On totally unrelated note, I think that the gfi plug thread may be about to be closed-check it out.:lol:

Yahhh, it might. But as much as I dont want to admit it its funny when threads hit that point :lol:

On the plus side this one went to page 60

 

[romex jockey]

I've read some '17 rops that would have us do the AIC math for services, no more 'slap the AIC sticker' on

I suspect from simply an economic viewpoint, fuses service rated disco's will be making a comeback....

~RJ~

 

[K8MHZ]

Yahhh, it might. But as much as I dont want to admit it its funny when threads hit that point :lol:

On the plus side this one went to page 60

Which surprised me.

So far, only a minority of posters is pro AFCI, and only one or two claim to have witnessed an AFCI react to a real life arc scenario.

Hopefully, this thread and others like it will get the attention of people that think AFCI technology is all it's stated to be, which I don't and never have.

This goes back to the first AFCI I ever installed. Prior to installation I tested the AFCI using a space heater to limit the current and then created a series arc by cutting the conductor. It was like a small arc welder. I could make arcs and sparks as long as I wanted to and the breaker never tripped.

Since then I have been skeptical and now it's been years of false trip complaints and added costs and so far, 90 percent of the installers I know hate them.

Thanks for all the input and info. Please, keep it going without taking the thread down the rabbit hole. I would appreciate that.

 

[user 100]

Which surprised me.

So far, only a minority of posters is pro AFCI, and only one or two claim to have witnessed an AFCI react to a real life arc scenario.

Hopefully, this thread and others like it will get the attention of people that think AFCI technology is all it's stated to be, which I don't and never have.

This goes back to the first AFCI I ever installed. Prior to installation I tested the AFCI using a space heater to limit the current and then created a series arc by cutting the conductor. It was like a small arc welder. I could make arcs and sparks as long as I wanted to and the breaker never tripped.

Since then I have been skeptical and now it's been years of false trip complaints and added costs and so far, 90 percent of the installers I know hate them.

Thanks for all the input and info. Please, keep it going without taking the thread down the rabbit hole. I would appreciate that.

I am too surprised that this thing has made it some 60 pages. Everything from the ins and outs of different ocpds, to how things are done overseas w/ imput from an English sparky, to ways to mitigate dangers from damaged cords/ bad splices, and yes those instances where it appeared an afci performed as advertised-the input has been incredible.

I wonder exactly where this one ranks with respect to replies and views on MH.

 

[mbrooke]

I've read some '17 rops that would have us do the AIC math for services, no more 'slap the AIC sticker' on

I suspect from simply an economic viewpoint, fuses service rated disco's will be making a comeback....

~RJ~

Which page number? I hope its a reasonable rule...

 

[Tony S]

Which surprised me.

So far, only a minority of posters is pro AFCI, and only one or two claim to have witnessed an AFCI react to a real life arc scenario.

Hopefully, this thread and others like it will get the attention of people that think AFCI technology is all it's stated to be, which I don't and never have.

This goes back to the first AFCI I ever installed. Prior to installation I tested the AFCI using a space heater to limit the current and then created a series arc by cutting the conductor. It was like a small arc welder. I could make arcs and sparks as long as I wanted to and the breaker never tripped.

Since then I have been skeptical and now it's been years of false trip complaints and added costs and so far, 90 percent of the installers I know hate them.

Thanks for all the input and info. Please, keep it going without taking the thread down the rabbit hole. I would appreciate that.

Just what I needed to hear, thank you.

I am too surprised that this thing has made it some 60 pages. Everything from the ins and outs of different ocpds, to how things are done overseas w/ input from an English sparky, to ways to mitigate dangers from damaged cords/ bad splices, and yes those instances where it appeared an afci performed as advertised-the input has been incredible.

I wonder exactly where this one ranks with respect to replies and views on MH.

MIET engineer if you don’t mind.

I’ve more information on AFCI (AFDD) than you could think.

I do not want these things introduced to the UK as our system of testing and documentation makes them superfluous.

 

[mbrooke]

Just what I needed to hear, thank you.




MIET engineer if you don’t mind.

I’ve more information on AFCI (AFDD) than you could think.

I do not want these things introduced to the UK as our system of testing and documentation makes them superfluous.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thats funny, your to modest. The very electrical system you have in place does EXACTLY what an AFCI does let alone the testing and documentation. People are taught disconnect times and RCDs are only to fulfill protection against electric shock, but thats bunk. Its only part of it. They also fulfill fire protection at the same time.

 

[user 100]

Just what I needed to hear, thank you.




MIET engineer if you don’t mind.

I’ve more information on AFCI (AFDD) than you could think.

I do not want these things introduced to the UK as our system of testing and documentation makes them superfluous.

No, I don't mind at all. Its been great having an MIET engineer offer excellent perspectives on the afci issue and taking the time to offer insight regarding the U.K.'s electrical system. You guys are probably the last people on earth that actually need these things. While there are a few things about the British system that I don't believe would work well over here, I will say that from what I've gathered, you guys do have a top notch program.