'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

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Has Mike Holt been hacked?

Has Mike Holt been hacked?

Mike Holt did have a PDF document in response to AFCIs. I appears as though it has been corrupted. Could it be the Mike is a victim also?
I searched "glowing electrical connections" using Google, yahoo, Bing and the results were all the same. "This document can not be opened because it is corrupted or damaged."
Has Mike been hacked?
Refer to the following result:
Cutler-Hammer Branch/Feeder AFCI incorporating Ground Fault ...
www.mikeholt.com/htmlnews/afci/ULreportonterminals.pdf
These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections. The glowing connection has been documented by a ... Exploratory Study of Glowing Electrical Connections,
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...nals.pdf/RK=0/RS=Zii_VcDsHYrzMIqbCbqtiAYHhMg-
 
templdl said:
Mike Holt did have a PDF document in response to AFCIs. I appears as though it has been corrupted. Could it be the Mike is a victim also?
I searched "glowing electrical connections" using Google, yahoo, Bing and the results were all the same. "This document can not be opened because it is corrupted or damaged."
Has Mike been hacked?
Refer to the following result:
Cutler-Hammer Branch/Feeder AFCI incorporating Ground Fault ...
www.mikeholt.com/htmlnews/afci/ULreportonterminals.pdf
These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections. The glowing connection has been documented by a ... Exploratory Study of Glowing Electrical Connections,
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...nals.pdf/RK=0/RS=Zii_VcDsHYrzMIqbCbqtiAYHhMg-
Click to expand...


Can you get page 14 (16 in the viewer) to load?
 
templdl said:
But let's say that they are capable of doing what they say they do, for years I have been waiting for the insurance companies to jump all over this with some financial incentives like flies on s__t via premium deductions or credits should the homeowners install them.
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AFCIs may even cost the insurance companies money.

I was inpecting the electrical of a house that was for sale ( working for the buyer).

The panel had been replace due to electrical storm damage. They couldn't leave the panel at existing location because of working clearance. Once they moved the panel they needed AFCI protection. I counted about $1400 worth of CH AFCIs used on that job. I have no idea how much trouble-shooting was needed to keep breakers from tripping.

The owner said the EC had two guys working on the job for a week. The work looked good and I couldn't find any reason for it not to pass. The city inspector had passed it. The owner said the EC billed the insurance company for $11K. It was a big well known company but was still the most expensive 200 amp service I have seen for residential ( no underground work or anything out of the ordinary ).

The insurance companies had better hope those AFCIs work for the money they will have to pay for them in cases like this.
 
growler said:
AFCIs may even cost the insurance companies money.

I was inpecting the electrical of a house that was for sale ( working for the buyer).

The panel had been replace due to electrical storm damage. They couldn't leave the panel at existing location because of working clearance. Once they moved the panel they needed AFCI protection. I counted about $1400 worth of CH AFCIs used on that job. I have no idea how much trouble-shooting was needed to keep breakers from tripping.

The owner said the EC had two guys working on the job for a week. The work looked good and I couldn't find any reason for it not to pass. The city inspector had passed it. The owner said the EC billed the insurance company for $11K. It was a big well known company but was still the most expensive 200 amp service I have seen for residential ( no underground work or anything out of the ordinary ).

The insurance companies had better hope those AFCIs work for the money they will have to pay for them in cases like this.
Click to expand...
They just raise the premiums. It comes out of the policy holders pocket in the end.
Yes and regarding working, there is a saying that "If my Aunt had gonads she would be my uncle."
 
growler said:
AFCIs may even cost the insurance companies money.

I was inpecting the electrical of a house that was for sale ( working for the buyer).

The panel had been replace due to electrical storm damage. They couldn't leave the panel at existing location because of working clearance. Once they moved the panel they needed AFCI protection. I counted about $1400 worth of CH AFCIs used on that job. I have no idea how much trouble-shooting was needed to keep breakers from tripping.

The owner said the EC had two guys working on the job for a week. The work looked good and I couldn't find any reason for it not to pass. The city inspector had passed it. The owner said the EC billed the insurance company for $11K. It was a big well known company but was still the most expensive 200 amp service I have seen for residential ( no underground work or anything out of the ordinary ).

The insurance companies had better hope those AFCIs work for the money they will have to pay for them in cases like this.
Click to expand...


In this case its a win-win. I know around here when something like this happens people usually will choose a handyman who wont pull permits or use AFCIs. Back then it wasn't that much of an issue, but when people see now that pros need to charge $1000 more per service change its a no brainier to laymen.


The fact AHJ blindly enforce AFCI rules says something about inspectors as a whole: they have also been duped having no ability to think for themselves.
 
mbrooke said:
In this case its a win-win. I know around here when something like this happens people usually will choose a handyman who wont pull permits or use AFCIs. Back then it wasn't that much of an issue, but when people see now that pros need to charge $1000 more per service change its a no brainier to laymen.


The fact AHJ blindly enforce AFCI rules says something about inspectors as a whole: they have also been duped having no ability to think for themselves.
Click to expand...
The extra cost associated with afcis is definitely no joke, especially when people do hire crooks to change out their service.
They end up a lot of times being left with something that is more dangerous than what they had. This is what is especially galling about the
afcis req: In many situations folks need panel replacement real bad and would benefit greatly from having those old circuits just protected by cheaper modern standard mag cbs. Can't give it to 'em many times due to inspector or ahj, who have been sucked into the afci delusion. Any argument too that afcis have been good for business (replacements) must be tempered by the rise in unqualified work due to people being less able to afford us and the fact of how much time gets wasted troubleshooting these anachronisms, not to mention damage that gets done to reputation when issues don't resolved quickly enough.
 
mbrooke said:
I was successful but pages are missing.
Click to expand...

You certainly had better luck than I did. Barring the missing pages does it make any sense? I'm working from my tablet and.may have better success using my desktop
I not so sure Mike has been making the boys at Eaton very happy at all after reading a letter that Mike received from Kimblin and then Mike replied to. It doesn't appear as though Kimblin replied back to Mike.
 
user 100 said:
The extra cost associated with afcis is definitely no joke, especially when people do hire crooks to change out their service.
They end up a lot of times being left with something that is more dangerous than what they had. This is what is especially galling about the
afcis req: In many situations folks need panel replacement real bad and would benefit greatly from having those old circuits just protected by cheaper modern standard mag cbs. Can't give it to 'em many times due to inspector or ahj, who have been sucked into the afci delusion. Any argument too that afcis have been good for business (replacements) must be tempered by the rise in unqualified work due to people being less able to afford us and the fact of how much time gets wasted troubleshooting these anachronisms, not to mention damage that gets done to reputation when issues don't resolved quickly enough.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is a whole other issue which already occurs but AFCIs is just another opportunity is all. But at this time we must be addressing the validity of AFCIs regardless if there are unscrupulous or unqualified people out there that may be paying on this issue.
 
templdl said:
You certainly had better luck than I did. Barring the missing pages does it make any sense? I'm working from my tablet and.may have better success using my desktop
I not so sure Mike has been making the boys at Eaton very happy at all after reading a letter that Mike received from Kimblin and then Mike replied to. It doesn't appear as though Kimblin replied back to Mike.
Click to expand...

The link to the PDF opens fine in Firefox on my Mac laptop (with Adobe plugin???) And when I save the file it opens fine in Preview, the default PDF and image viewer on the Mac.
 
AFCI's do locate some things very well - profit for manufacturers and aggravation and lost money for contractors and end users who are stuck with them.
 
Fulthrotl said:
the chief inspector of a city near here, and i were playing with an AFCI.

here is what we did:

put a 100 watt lightbulb as a load across the AFCI.

removed a wirenut, and fiddled with the wires to draw
an arc, similar to what one would expect with a loose
wirenut, the sort of horrible situation the AFCI is supposed
to mitigate.

were we to use a larger load, like a hairdryer, we would be
able to pull a larger arc due to the higher current flow, but
we didn't bother to get that involved.

we were able to make an arc large enough to start a fire,
and win our merit badges in fire making. the AFCI did not
threaten our merit badges whatsoever.

the ONLY way i've ever been able to successfully trip an AFCI
externally to the devices test button, is with my ideal AFCI tester.

the AHJ and my conclusion: AFCI's serve as a profit stream for
manufacturers, and little else.
Click to expand...

D1101-2.jpg

~RJ~
 
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don_resqcapt19 said:
The load is too small for the AFCI to even look for an arcing fault. It only looks for series arcing faults when the current is 5 amps or greater and it only looks for parallel arcing faults where the current is 75 amps of greater.
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So we can essentially consider a 100W light bulb burning away in each outlet non incendiary ?

~RJ~
 
mbrooke said:
Nothing low cost could distinguish it as the panel, but certainly self fusing wire splices can. See post #80:


http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170744&page=8&p=1661940#post1661940
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It seemed to me that it was a thermal switch that created a ground fault through a current limiting resistor.

Seemed long on conspiracy and short on practical application. Every wirenut, device, terminal...yes every connection would need one of these. Can't begin to imagine what a pain that would be not to mention other things like box fill, added time, and who knows what else.
 
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