Pulling permits and inspectors

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willybud

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mass
We pull permits for every job we do from a full service changes to replacing existing wall fixtures to replacing wirenuts.
Sometimes inspectors call us and ask us why we pulled a permit. There is one inspector that won't get out of his car to inspect you have to bring the building permit to his car or place of business.
Now I know some EC's would love this but I want to know the money I'm sending for each permit is being used for it's designated purpose.
I enjoy having my work inspected by others and if there is something wrong we fix it without question.
Are there any inspectors that would like to comment on this matter.
All work is done in Mass.
Thanks
 
He is not an inspector if he is not looking at the work. If you have the 'gulunes', you will bring him to the carpet on this. I would not even mention it to him.
Signing an inspection document without going to the job is FRAUD , and he should be dealt with in accordance.

I was on a job a few years ago where the inspector did not come to the property to inspect the work. It was divulged to his office and he was given two choices... fight it, or retire... he retired, they even gave him a retirement party :shock:

What about that 6 year old boy who died from an improper electrical installation that was never inspected, yet was signed off on????? CRIMINAL
If I was the judge, the inspectors that signed that document would not see the light of day again...as they rot in jail.
Can you tell this topic really pisses me off :wink:



IF WE DO NOT PROTECT OUR INDUSTRY, NO ONE WILL!!!!!!!
 
Right after I bought my house, I called a plumber and an electrician to give me estimates for some work I wanted to have done. The plumber was not very skilled in the English language, so I had to listen carefully as we were discussing his estimate. At the end, he stunned me with what sounded to me like, "Do you want to get the permit?"

In my area, plumbers must go personally to an office downtown, and wait in line to get a permit. Electricians can apply for a permit on-line. So when I heard his question, I thought he was suggesting that I could save money by going downtown myself, and pulling the permit myself, rather than paying plumber's rates for a 3-4 hour trip. There was a very confusing conversation that followed, as I tried to explain that I had no interest in making the trip myself.

I came eventually to understand that what he had intended to say is, "Do you want to get a permit?" He was giving me the opportunity to have the job done without a permit and without an inspection. It seems that many of his customers don't want to pay the extra costs of doing things legally. Even if this particular job was not a safety issue in itself (new gas lines under the house to convey propane from the new outdoor tank to the stove), I would not have gone along with his suggestion. I found someone else to do the job.
 
I see this all the time. I remember my first topic posted on this board over a year ago was on this exact topic. We hire an inspector who is an underwriter on our work performed. The company we hire to inspect our work is responsible to make sure all our the work is to code and safe, the underwriter signs off on our work and also holds responsibility if our work is faulty. I have had several occasions were I will call for a rough-in inspection and the inspector just tells us its okay to close the walls without even a visit to the site. I understand that the inspector does this only because he is familiar with our work although I would rather it be looked at.

My only conclusion to this problem is that I became an avid student of the NEC and local codes, I no longer count on the inspector to find our faults. I do a detailed walkthrough of every job we complete as though I am the inspector. We as EC's have the responsibility to make sure all of our work is done in a safe manner and cant always count on an inspector to catch our mistakes. We simply get our work inspected because its required by law.

On the other hand I also understand that its nearly impossible for an inspector to check every grounding screw, connector and wire nut, this could take all day to do. We don't mind paying the fee because its the customer that pays it anyway. If the inspector does not do their job then its more of an issue between the Inspector and customer.

On a side question to this topic, has anybody ever had an occasion where your work was accused of creating a fire or safety problem where you were able to turn around and say that the work was inspected therefore you cant be held responsible. I am just wondering to what extent our responsibility to a problem is lifted due to an underwriter signing of on our workmanship.
 
speedystevie said:
I am just wondering to what extent our responsibility to a problem is lifted due to an underwriter signing of on our workmanship.
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I have no facts to offer, but I tend to think that none of your responsibility (or liability) is taken away from you by anyone who inspects and signs off on your work. I do know that that is the case in my world (engineering).

Keep in mind that anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason, and that "liability" is whatever the jury thinks it is.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
You really get a permit to replace a fixture?

If I don't, does that make me irresponsible?
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I personally don't ever get an inspection on anything as small as replacing a fixture. And I don't think the customer wants to pay the $90 inspection fee on a $75 service call.

I don't find that to be irresponsible.
 
charlie b said:
I have no facts to offer, but I tend to think that none of your responsibility (or liability) is taken away from you by anyone who inspects and signs off on your work. I do know that that is the case in my world (engineering).
Click to expand...

I still wonder why the inspection company is called an "Underwriter" if they hold no responsibility?

When I think of an "Underwriter" I think of an insurance company.
 
Replacement of fixtures and devices in NYS does not require a permit. Installation of NEW fixtures and devices requires a permit

Steve
If all contractors were as diligent as you are, inspectors would probably be out of work.
As an inspector, I was given the opportunity many times to take pictures of horror stories that were called upon for inspection, thinking the work they had installed was ready for an inspection.

If anyone would like to see some, I will gladly post some of them. I know the contractors at the monthly meetings get big kick out of them. Of course I do not divulge the names of the "inocent" even though I would love to... as a deterent to further defamation to our industry.
 
speedystevie said:
jwelectric said:
hardworkingstiff said:
You really get a permit to replace a fixture?

If I don't, does that make me irresponsible?
Click to expand...

YES
Click to expand...

How so?
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I guess it does. I just called and checked. The only thing you don't need a permit for is to change a screw fuse, cartridge fuse, or ballast.

Change a fixture, receptacle, switch, etc., permit is required.

Sure glad I don't do service work.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Steve
If all contractors were as diligent as you are, inspectors would probably be out of work.
As an inspector, I was given the opportunity many times to take pictures of horror stories that were called upon for inspection, thinking the work they had installed was ready for an inspection.

If anyone would like to see some, I will gladly post some of them. I know the contractors at the monthly meetings get big kick out of them. Of course I do not divulge the names of the "inocent" even though I would love to... as a deterent to further defamation to our industry.
Click to expand...

I have seen many of these nightmares projects myself and refuse to ever be one of those contractors you feel a need to take a picture of their workmanship unless of course its for the EC of the year contest. The best one I ever saw was about 15 to 20 runs of romex running through a 2" SER connector in the top of a 200Amp main breaker panel. Now I will never say I am better than the next guy but I will say that My work is what puts the food on the table and as long as I also know that the the house I am working on has a family living in it I will do everything possible in my power to make sure that home is a safe one because I appreciate and understand how risky our profession can be. I don't ever in my life want to find out that I put a family at risk.

Sorry if that just got to deep.
 
The Electrical Chief Inspector, said there is no responsiblility or liability on the inspector. Period. It just a code compliance, city ordinace compliance.
Plus down here it allows the tax appraisal distric to re-assess the property value & raise the taxes on the house based on the property value.
Personally we never pull permits unless its a high traffic area or there is a building permit involved. My middle name is "Bootleg" to the inspectors. with a capital "B"
I was caught once, without a permit, by a plumbing inspector, who called the elec. dept. & immediately they were there, writing me an $800 municipal citation. I went down & complained about not getting a warning first based on my good standing. Anyway I went to court, ready to fight it. I knew they had no evidence to present. No one showed, case dismissed.

Bottom line is, and you should ask your AHJ, but if you do the work, permit or not, you are responsible. My Insurance agent told me this, an insurance investigator for electrical claims told me this, and a good friend that represents insurance companies against contractors, agreed too.

Have Insurance to cover your ass, save your customer money on permit fees. Sign your name on the work with a company sticker on the panel. Mark your turf to your competition.
 
Willybud,

As I'm sure you know, everything you mentioned requires a permit in MA. Right down to replacing a wirenut.

If you send in a permit application for any minute task in our jurisdiction, we will issue a permit and perform an inspection. If for example you obtained a permit to change a light, we'd go out to inspect. We'd basically look at finished product and presume you installed correctly. We would not remove light to check and then reinstall, FWIW.
 
I know an EC who was caught working without a permit once. He got a very stern letter from the state telling him that he better not let that happen again. I presume his license would be in jeopardy if he did.

The law is pretty clear about what requires a permit and what doesn't. If I come across a gray area, I call the chief inspector and ask him. Sometimes he says I need one, sometime he says not to worry about it. Either way, I pull a permit whenever I'm supposed to. If something ever went wrong and they found the work was done without a permit, do you think that would look good in court?
 
I've been watching this post and it appears there are very different schools of thought on when to pull a permit. The bottom line is that in the state of Mass a permit must be obtained for all work done by an EC. If you go to the state web site www.state.ma.us/reg/bosards/el and click on disciplinary you will see many EC's that have had their licenses suspended just for this reason.
John I was wrong we have never worked in your town but hope to soon. We have worked in every other town that begins with the letter M but some how yours escaped.
Pierre I like your challenge and am prepared to do something about it. The gulunes grow.
 
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