Purpose of the neutral

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ok I understand but how does the current get back to the source with no return path when using straight 240/480

Not exactly sure what you mean by straight 240/480. .
He may have just meant straight 240 or straight 480 and was not specifically referring to a 240/480 system (which is common here in irrigation country). But good explanation anyway.

LT, if you did just mean straight 240 or straight 480 Smart $'s explanation still applies. If you have a 240 volt resistive heating element you have one line out to the element and one line back. You have to have this to have a place for current to flow. It just happens to connect to different points of the supply than it would for 120 volts to obtain desired voltage. The neutral is of no use to this load, it would be delivering the wrong voltage if it were used. Now the equipment grounding conductor is almost always going to derived from the neutral of this supply, but is not a functional part of the circuit. The heater will still work without the equipment grounding conductor. The equipment grounding conductors function is to provide a low impedance path to help facilitate opening overcurrent devices should a fault from an ungrounded conductor occur to grounded surfaces.
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
ya I ment using 240 or 480v Ive read all the post and have gained alot of knowledge and know understand for the most part .I always thought of a circuit were it starts at a source say a mdp current goes to a load and then returns to the source on the nuetral like a loop.So it was Always hard for me to understand how when you use only l1 and l2 how it returnes back to the source or keeps the loop after reading the last post I think you cleared it up for me
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
ya I ment using 240 or 480v Ive read all the post and have gained alot of knowledge and know understand for the most part .I always thought of a circuit were it starts at a source say a mdp current goes to a load and then returns to the source on the nuetral like a loop.So it was Always hard for me to understand how when you use only l1 and l2 how it returnes back to the source or keeps the loop after reading the last post I think you cleared it up for me
Something that may help clear it up more is that while the voltage from neutral to lines 1 and 2 are equal in magnitude, the lines are polar opposites with respect to neutral (I would say phase, but in the past there have been several long-winded debates on the matter :happyyes:). With respect to neutral, when one line's instantaneous voltage is positive, the other's instantaneous voltage is negative, and polarity changes 120 times per second for 60Hz AC.

If the lines were polar identical with respect to neutral, there would be no voltage from line to line.
 
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eHunter

Senior Member
Something that may help clear it up more is that while the voltage from neutral to lines 1 and 2 are equal in magnitude, the lines are polar opposites with respect to neutral (I would say phase, but in the past there have been several long-winded debates on the matter :happyyes:). With respect to neutral, when one line's instantaneous voltage is positive, the other's instantaneous voltage is negative, and polarity changes 120 times per second for 60Hz AC.

If the lines were polar identical with respect to neutral, there would be no voltage from line to line.

I believe what you are describing is easily described and visually represented as "phasors".
A neutral is a relative reference connection point in the generation or transformer windings. A neutral conductor is the conductor connected to that relative reference point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor

It is dry reading, but a little transformer and winding theory may help in understanding phases, current flow, winding neutral points and voltages relative to neutral(winding center tap) and both ends of the single phase winding or the three windings of a three phase transformer or generator.
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Transformer
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
ya I ment using 240 or 480v Ive read all the post and have gained alot of knowledge and know understand for the most part .I always thought of a circuit were it starts at a source say a mdp current goes to a load and then returns to the source on the nuetral like a loop.So it was Always hard for me to understand how when you use only l1 and l2 how it returnes back to the source or keeps the loop after reading the last post I think you cleared it up for me
In a balanced split phase circuit, L1 and L2 are in a push-pull configuration; during one half cycle the current is flowing toward the load on one conductor and away from the load on the other, and during the next half cycle the directions are reversed. In a three phase balanced circuit it's the same, but the math is more complicated.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I believe what you are describing is easily described and visually represented as "phasors".
A neutral is a relative reference connection point in the generation or transformer windings. A neutral conductor is the conductor connected to that relative reference point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor

It is dry reading, but a little transformer and winding theory may help in understanding phases, current flow, winding neutral points and voltages relative to neutral(winding center tap) and both ends of the single phase winding or the three windings of a three phase transformer or generator.
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Transformer

He wasn't kidding when he said there have been some long winded debates on the matter, we are talking about hijacking a thread similar to this one over similar content, and going over 100 posts with it. If you want to go down that road please do so in its own thread is all I ask.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
... In a three phase balanced circuit it's the same, but the math is more complicated.
In a 3? circuit, I'd say similar. The push-pull concept actually changes three times per cycle rather than two, because it changes on the difference in voltage, which isn't at the zero voltage-to-neutral points.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
In a 3? circuit, I'd say similar. The push-pull concept actually changes three times per cycle rather than two, because it changes on the difference in voltage, which isn't at the zero voltage-to-neutral points.
Semantics. It's the same in that the current supply and return is all in the phase conductors and there's no current on the neutral if there even is a neutral. I am trying to keep it simple because the OP apparently doesn't have much electrical background.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Semantics. It's the same in that the current supply and return is all in the phase conductors and there's no current on the neutral if there even is a neutral. I am trying to keep it simple because the OP apparently doesn't have much electrical background.

Which is why we don't need 100 posts on all the technicalities, we are teaching someone trying to grasp a basic concept.

I don't even completely understand the vector math and other related technicalities, but have found for most of what I do, it is not necessary to know either. It does come in handy to have a little knowledge of it in some situations though - but that is content for another thread. The very basics of what is being asked can be taught with a center tapped DC source and it is still same basics.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Semantics. It's the same in that the current supply and return is all in the phase conductors and there's no current on the neutral if there even is a neutral. I am trying to keep it simple because the OP apparently doesn't have much electrical background.
Not semantics... but I respect the remainder of your statement. :p
 

captainwireman

Senior Member
Location
USA, mostly.
More on the ground.

More on the ground.

Not only is the grounding conductor (not neutral) to facilitate the operation of an overcurrent device, (blow a fuse, trip a breaker) but operation of sensors used in high-impedence grounded systems to indicate a ground fault condition.
For example, a low resistance direct line to neutral fault in a generator supplied system would likely fry the generator as well as tripping the OC device so a high impedance grounded system is often used to "soften" the onrush current of a fault and save the generator but still trip the OC device. If there was a high resistance fault on this system, high enough so that the slight amount of fault to ground current is not enough to overcome the system neutral grounding resistor and trip the OC device, a plant operator can still see that a slight fault condition is occurring and needs to be addressed.

Let's not forget about lightning protection too.

Hope this was written simple enough to understand...
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Lets start with Thomas Edison. For a DC circuit, he discovered instead of 2 2 wire circuits + and -, he could have a 3 wire circuit, 2 hots (DC+) and a common (DC-) or neutral. The neutral carries the unbalanced current between the two hots - leg a 10 amps and leg b 5 amps the neutral will carry 5 amps. Draw it out and its easy to see. In the NEC will call this a multiwire branch circuit, it saves wire and reduces voltage drop.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Lets start with Thomas Edison. For a DC circuit, he discovered instead of 2 2 wire circuits + and -, he could have a 3 wire circuit, 2 hots (DC+) and a common (DC-) or neutral.
Unlike AC, with DC you cannot have two hots which are both (+) and still balance load between them unless they are different DC voltages. In that case, by the NEC definition of neutral, the common (-) cannot be a neutral. Now if the two hots were +100 volts and - 100 volts, with what now is a neutral near ground, then it would be like an AC MWBC. This would also allow 200 volt loads to be wired directly between the two hots.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Unlike AC, with DC you cannot have two hots which are both (+) and still balance load between them unless they are different DC voltages. In that case, by the NEC definition of neutral, the common (-) cannot be a neutral. Now if the two hots were +100 volts and - 100 volts, with what now is a neutral near ground, then it would be like an AC MWBC. This would also allow 200 volt loads to be wired directly between the two hots.
If you look at AC with an instantaneous snapshot it looks like DC, i.e., at any point in time other than a zero crossing point, there is a positive and a negative conductor with the neutral in the middle.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If you look at AC with an instantaneous snapshot it looks like DC, i.e., at any point in time other than a zero crossing point, there is a positive and a negative conductor with the neutral in the middle.
But it never looks like DC with both sides + at the same time! Which was my point. ( two hot (+) and one common/neutral (-) does not fly. )
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
But it never looks like DC with both sides + at the same time! Which was my point. ( two hot (+) and one common/neutral (-) does not fly. )
I thought you were talking about center grounded three wire DC with two hots, one + and one -, like what op amps run on. That is the same as instantaneous split phase AC except for zero crossing points. I think that must have been what Tom was thinking of, anyway. That's the only way it could have worked as he described it.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I thought you were talking about center grounded three wire DC with two hots, one + and one -, like what op amps run on. That is the same as instantaneous split phase AC except for zero crossing points. I think that must have been what Tom was thinking of, anyway. That's the only way it could have worked as he described it.

But Tom described it as having (+) at each end and (-) at the center tap. You can connect two identical DC sources in this way, but instead of 2x voltage from (+) to (+) you get no voltage, but voltage to (-) remains the same. Connect the two (+) terminals together and your sources are in parallel.
 
neutral wires, even though a wire is concidered to not be a current carring conductor

neutral wires, even though a wire is concidered to not be a current carring conductor

I want to jump in here and add particularly to Augie and kwired.

Do a little research on transformers, particularly single phase center tapped, and 3 phase 4 wire Wye connected transformers. While doing this remember that for all intents and purposes, electricity "flows" similar to a liquid in a closed system. The winding of the transformer is part of that closed system. For this, don't worry at all about the primary side, for the time being. Single phase is easier to understand first. Follow one electron.

If your load (equipment) is 240 volts, the electron starts at whatever point inside the transformer coil you want. It leaves along a wire, runs along the wire, runs through the motor, causing it to operate and then runs along the other wire back to the coil, then through the coil to the original start spot.

If your load is 120V similar to the above, except one of the wires is the neutral. I don't like to say go and return, because the direction changes 60 times a second. As you can see, the path to ground is a dead end, in either of the above scenarios, so the electron WILL NOT flow to ground.

Now is gets complicated. If you have both "hots" going out, with a shared neutral coming back, any time only one load is on, the 2nd scenario above works, but when you turn on the second load, now, as electron flow, basically they will travel, along a wire, through one load, along the neutral, until the come to the common joint, where the neutrals for each load join together. At that point, think of it like as many electrons as the second load will allow to pass (in other words, the amount of amperage) will flow, back up the neutral wire to the second load, and then along the hot wire, back to the transformer coil. Only the extra electrons, that the second load can't use will flow back to the transformer on the neutral. Note that the 1st load is the one the draws more current (amperage). Now you know why one of the terms for the neutral is the common.

Bonding the neutral to ground. What that does is for safety 100% period. As I pointed out, in all of the above scenarios, any electron trying to run to ground can only do it on the bonding wire, and that is a dead end. When and if, a fault allows the electrons to run to a metal case of equipment, or a water pipe, instead of just sitting there, waiting, to zap the unsuspecting victim, it will instead run back to the transformer coil along the grounding system. Basically, the path is designed to be big enough that the current will cause the breaker to trip, negating the danger. The other part of this is that the possibility of a human contact the full voltage of the system (Hot to hot, or direct short) is far more unlikely without two faults. In an ungrounded system, it basically takes two ground faults to trip a breaker, but all the time that the single fault is out there, the potential for a person to become the second fault is really high, because you can't "see" the first fault. Military ships, operate on ungrounded systems, because reliability is more important than human life. They have sensors that sense the first fault, but the systems will still operate until the crew ahs time to fix the fault, which may not be in the middle of a conflict.

:jawdrop: even though a wire is concidered to not be a non-current carring conductor. Never get between a neutral(or break) you could be the return path to ground:slaphead:
 
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