Push-Matic Panel

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sw_ross

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I have one house that I did a service upgrade for last fall that had a Push-Matic panel. The upgrade was primarily due to additional loads that exceeded the old panel, as well as not being able to add circuits to the old panel.

I have another house with the same panel and the owner is interested in upgrading the panel- mainly because she thinks it is out of date (no additional loads being added).

I don't know the history of these panels. Is there any fire concerns like Federal Pacific panels? Or other concerns that I should be aware of?

Thanks!
 
There are no safety concerns like FPE panels AFAIK however, they are obsolete. Replacement breakers are expensive. You can't get AFCI breakers. The useful life of miniature circuit breakers is estimated to be 30-40 years (Consumer Product Safety Commission) so all the breakers are past their useful life and may not operate as expected in an emergency. I would recommend replacing the panel.
 
Coppersmith said:
There are no safety concerns like FPE panels AFAIK however, they are obsolete. Replacement breakers are expensive. You can't get AFCI breakers. The useful life of miniature circuit breakers is estimated to be 30-40 years (Consumer Product Safety Commission) so all the breakers are past their useful life and may not operate as expected in an emergency. I would recommend replacing the panel.
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To my knowledge, they were last pushed in the 80's, and as said above breakers are obsolete & costly so is a wise move replace, ITE Pushmatics were the only residential bolt-on breakers.
 
Thanks!

I'll have a conversation with this the HO.
I had informed the HO that they weren't available/obsolete.
Just wasn't sure about fire danger possibility.
 
One of my first electrical jobs circa 1954 was helping pop replace the solder wire fuse panel and K&T in our house.

Installed pushmatics. Mom is 96 and still lives in the same house. Have never had any problem with the pushmatics in over 60 years. Checked all the connection torques about 10 years ago, everything still tight.


If it aint broke, don't mess with it. Am perfectly satisfied with the safety aspect with own mother living in the house.

Brother found many pushmatics on ebay/amazon, etc and such for $6 to $10 per pole when he wanted to add a circuit for mom's sewing room.

Biggest limitation is for new work, no AFCI available, etc.
 
junkhound said:
One of my first electrical jobs circa 1954 was helping pop replace the solder wire fuse panel and K&T in our house.

Installed pushmatics. Mom is 96 and still lives in the same house. Have never had any problem with the pushmatics in over 60 years. Checked all the connection torques about 10 years ago, everything still tight.


If it aint broke, don't mess with it. Am perfectly satisfied with the safety aspect with own mother living in the house.

Brother found many pushmatics on ebay/amazon, etc and such for $6 to $10 per pole when he wanted to add a circuit for mom's sewing room.

Biggest limitation is for new work, no AFCI available, etc.
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I dealt in pushM and that company made quality if they aren't broken they will continue to work. The made that stuff to last. They also make grey new breakers for them but I recommend using lightly used ones. I sold a case of NOS push for 10 a pop. I don't think I have many more but this site isn't for selling. eBay has them and breaker resellers have them. The grey ones from the shop and retail are new but they don't seem to be as quality as OEM. Also those panels are excellent craftsmanship. Equal to industrial quality of today.

To tell the condition simply push them and examine the action. A firm snapping action means good to go! Any funny action and toss em. Broken off/on doesn't mean they don't work this break easy and if the action is good so is the breaker.

They were made in Detroit when that meant quality! (I.e. where square D is from but no longer)

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Coppersmith said:
There are no safety concerns like FPE panels AFAIK however, they are obsolete. Replacement breakers are expensive. You can't get AFCI breakers. The useful life of miniature circuit breakers is estimated to be 30-40 years (Consumer Product Safety Commission) so all the breakers are past their useful life and may not operate as expected in an emergency. I would recommend replacing the panel.
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I doubt the house will hold afci, they don't usually work well on old wiring from that era. They are certainly not obsolete. Replacement breakers are readily available and fairly priced. The new ones are expensive and not that good but NOS and lightly used are great. I almost bet they will outlast your "upgrade"

If no new wiring needed leave alone.

New wiring needed}} OK great then you will have to do a whole service or else your a hack

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MichiganTop5 said:
Replacement breakers are readily available and fairly priced. The new ones are expensive
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The replacement breakers must be used then.
MichiganTop5 said:
lightly used ones
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I'm not sure how one would tell a lightly used breaker from a breaker that has been operating for 60 years. The Consumer Product Safety Commission says breakers should be replaced after 30-40 years.

MichiganTop5 said:
you[']r[e] a hack
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No need for name calling. We are all friendly here.
 
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Coppersmith said:
The replacement breakers must be used than.



I'm not sure how one would tell a lightly used breaker from a breaker that has been operating for 60 years.



No need for name calling. We are all friendly here.
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If one runs around swapping out 60 or 80 or 100 year old panels and one doesnt upgrade the services. That person is a lazy hack. If your feeling guilty change your ways.

Also I said in a separate post you can tell the condition of them by testing the action. The action tells all with these particular breakers.

Lightly used is my term for not abused and correctly installed and uninstalled before sale

They are in operation all over the world and are not know to cause fires and they are pretty old and still trip correct. OK I'm not so sure other brands will do the same but the pushM are the "Truth" as we say in Michigan

They made a lot of gfci breakers but I'm not sure I have ever seen afci models.

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Coppersmith said:
The replacement breakers must be used then.



I'm not sure how one would tell a lightly used breaker from a breaker that has been operating for 60 years. The Consumer Product Safety Commission says breakers should be replaced after 30-40 years.



No need for name calling. We are all friendly here.
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The new replacement are made by Connecticut electric

I recommend the good used ones but the CE are fair
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4f16cfcd00789ea7e52e9c8558cb918e.jpg


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MichiganTop5 said:
If one runs around swapping out 60 or 80 or 100 year old panels and one doesn[']t upgrade the services. That person is a lazy hack. If your feeling guilty change your ways.
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I change lots of old services. Just changed a fuse box the other day it was 125 amps and was replaced with a 125 amp breaker box. I don't necessarily upgrade the service (I'm assuming you mean make them larger) because (1) that causes additional code rules to kick in making the job too pricey for some customers; and (2) many people have a service that is right sized for the property, just very old. I don't think that makes me a hack.
 
MichiganTop5 said:
The new replacement are made by Connecticut electric
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Oh, only $52 vs. $10 for a modern one. I guess spending 5 times the amount is not that expensive. If you were to replace all the breakers in a 30 space panel (because they are all past their useful life) that's only $780.
 
Coppersmith said:
I change lots of old services. Just changed a fuse box the other day it was 125 amps and was replaced with a 125 amp breaker box. I don't necessarily upgrade the service (I'm assuming you mean make them larger) because (1) that causes additional code rules to kick in making the job too pricey for some customers; and (2) many people have a service that is right sized for the property, just very old. I don't think that makes me a hack.
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I understand some customers don't have much budget. But when your doing these fuse upgrades, are you upgrading everything you touch? If you touch it you own it.

The grounding for instance did you install 2 rods

Did you bond the water and gas?

I guarantee the local ahj wants you to do the that.

Many locals require installation of smoke alarms if you work on a panel.

If you swap that panel that means you worked on every circuit in the house, since you worked on every circuit in the house did you bring up every circuit in the house to current?

I don't know your state but I'd imagine the 60 or 80 or 100 yo service cable is not in pristine condition. It is exposed to harsh temperatures and elements especially if it's ser or seu so not necessarily you need to go larger but replacement and I'm sure the old drop lugs have loosened over 80 years. C'mon let's get real

That cable gets brittle. When one touch it to "swap a panel" I bet money parts of its insulation cracked and turned to dust.

Not to mention temperatures extremes, sun and snow and all other types of outdoor degradation

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Coppersmith said:
........ The Consumer Product Safety Commission says breakers should be replaced after 30-40 years.
.....
.
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Own home is QO installed by self, breakers now 45 YO.
Chances of me replacing them is zero.

CPSC simply expanded their FPE 'findings' to everything?, even though the official CPSC FPE position is " ...the data currently available to the Commission does not establish that the circuit breakers (FPE) pose a serious risk of injury to consumers.... "
 
ActionDave said:
Anybody who installs used electrical equipment is a hack.
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LMAO used equipment is quality some used equipment is better Than new. I have some NOS bulldog pushM that I garuntee better than Connecticut Electric. If they better they better. Proof is in the years.
Lool how about transformers and motors, real pros buy and sell them after years of service.

Bottom line shiny new doesn't mean better.
Some of the first light bulbs still work
Some of the oldest cars still start and drive.
Bet your 2017 pickup falls apart in 20 years and the 1957 runs on

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Coppersmith said:
I change lots of old services. Just changed a fuse box the other day it was 125 amps and was replaced with a 125 amp breaker box. I don't necessarily upgrade the service (I'm assuming you mean make them larger) because (1) that causes additional code rules to kick in making the job too pricey for some customers; and (2) many people have a service that is right sized for the property, just very old. I don't think that makes me a hack.
Click to expand...

None of that makes anybody a hack. A small old house with all gas appliances that pulls a grand svc total of 60 amps in all its glory doesn't need a 200a svc.

I'll take it a step further- nothing wrong w/fuses as long as the adapters are installed- unfortunately insurance co's w/ idiotic rules may argue with that, but I digress. Or pushmatics either, outside of obsolescence.

About the need to comply w/ 210.12 in such cases- If a customer needs a couple of ckts, cant afford an upgrade, but the old panel has some empty spaces/ sp lugs/unused range PO etc.... and there is a good cushion, there is nothing wrong with using the old panel to feed a new sp and feeding the new ckts from the afci breakers in that. Sometimes you have to get creative. I would not add anything to a FPE or Zinsco under any circumstances.

MichiganTop5 said:
I understand some customers don't have much budget. But when your doing these fuse upgrades, are you upgrading everything you touch? If you touch it you own it.

The grounding for instance did you install 2 rods

Did you bond the water and gas?

I guarantee the local ahj wants you to do the that.

Many locals require installation of smoke alarms if you work on a panel.
Click to expand...

And?

2 of those (water pipe/ ground rods) are simply par for the course and required by the NEC.



MichiganTop5 said:
If you swap that panel that means you worked on every circuit in the house, since you worked on every circuit in the house did you bring up every circuit in the house to current?
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Varies by AHJ, but there is nothing in the NEC itself that makes such demands. The only thing that does is 210.12, but there is an exception to that under 210.12(B) that lets you out of needing to put in afcis, if the old ckt conductors are not extended more than 6ft.

Beyond that, not seeing how simply replacing the overcurrent protection is "working on the whole ckt." Yeah we could be liable if something happens, but thats why we carry insurance and there are contracts and disclaimers that get signed.

MichiganTop5 said:
don't know your state but I'd imagine the 60 or 80 or 100 yo service cable is not in pristine condition. It is exposed to harsh temperatures and elements especially if it's ser or seu so not necessarily you need to go larger but replacement and I'm sure the old drop lugs have loosened over 80 years. C'mon let's get real
Click to expand...

Coppersmith never said/implied that he leaves old SE cable in place- he only said that the doesn't increase the service size in a lot of cases b/c it isn't necessary. He could simply replace the old stuff w/ newer wire/cable of the same size, as long as he complies with 230.42.
 
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user 100 said:
None of that makes anybody a hack. A small old house with all gas appliances that pulls a grand svc total of 60 amps in all its glory doesn't need a 200a svc.

I'll take it a step further- nothing wrong w/fuses as long as the adapters are installed- unfortunately insurance co's w/ idiotic rules may argue with that, but I digress. Or pushmatics either, outside of obsolescence.

About the need to comply w/ 210.12 in such cases- If a customer needs a couple of ckts, cant afford an upgrade, but the old panel has some empty spaces/ sp lugs/unused range PO etc.... and there is a good cushion, there is nothing wrong with using the old panel to feed a new sp and feeding the new ckts from the afci breakers in that. Sometimes you have to get creative. I would not add anything to a FPE or Zinsco under any circumstances.



And?

2 of those (water pipe/ ground rods) are simply par for the course and required by the NEC.





Varies by AHJ, but there is nothing in the NEC itself that makes such demands. The only thing that does is 210.12, but there is an exception to that under 210.12(B) that lets you out of needing to put in afcis, if the old ckt conductors are not extended more than 6ft.

Beyond that, not seeing how simply replacing the overcurrent protection is "working on the whole ckt." Yeah we could be liable if something happens, but thats why we carry insurance and there are contracts and disclaimers that get signed.



Coppersmith never said/implied that he leaves old SE cable in place- he only said that the doesn't increase the service size in a lot of cases b/c it isn't necessary. He could simply replace the old stuff w/ newer wire/cable of the same size, as long as he complies with 230.42.
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Yea he said the service was old and he only changed the "breaker box"

This term "panel swap" or "panel swap-out" usually never includes all the proper work just a quick dollar and a shiny new box.

As words of my father those are "fly By Night" "electricians"


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