PV Connections to Panel / Service

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Grouch

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I'm reviewing the 2017 NEC, and just wanted to make sure I follow these 2 sections correctly:

705.12(A): If I have a house that is served by a 100 amp, singe phase service, my supply side connection from the PV inverter can be a maximum of 100 amps, single phase?

705.12(B)(2)(3)(a): I can place the inverter circuit breaker on the panel anywhere on the panel (doesn't have to be on the opposite end of the incoming service), as long as I don't exceed the breaker serving the busbar plus 125% of the inverter output current... is this correct?

and my 3rd question: isn't 705.12(B)(2)(3)(a) in conflict with 705.12(A)? (A) is saying i can place the connection at the top (on the supply side, before the panel)... so shouldn't there be a limit anyway that's established by (B)(2)(3)(a)?

Thanks!
 
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1) correct
2) correct...in that case you may have to replace the existing main breaker with a smaller one, because it often has a rating that is equal to the ampacity of the bus.
3) (A) and (B) are two totally different rules and there is no conflict. The panel bus is still protected by the service disconnect and cannot be over loaded. The service conductors are sized for the total calculated load of the building. Adding a solar source does not increase the load or current that those conductors will see. The solar output goes into the system or goes into the panel. As long as the solar output does not exceed the service size, there is no issue.
 
1) It can be a maximum of a 100A breaker, so unless you use a 100% rated breaker, the PV inverter current would be limited to 1/125% of that, or 80A.

2) If "I don't exceed" means "the busbar is rated at least" then yes. E.g. a 225A busbar, a 110A breaker protecting the busbar, and then the PV invert current could be up to 1/125% of (225A - 110A) = 92A.

3) (2) covers the case that you're interconnecting to a busbar protected by OCPD, and requires you to count all sources to ensure the busbar is protected. While in (1) the connection is upstream of any OCPD. Other than the (no longer allowed starting with the 2020 NEC) case of an MLO service panel, any busbar will be protected by a single OCPD between both sources and the busbar.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I'm reviewing the 2017 NEC, and just wanted to make sure I follow these 2 sections correctly:

705.12(A): If I have a house that is served by a 100 amp, singe phase service, my supply side connection from the PV inverter can be a maximum of 100 amps, single phase?

705.12(B)(2)(3)(a): I can place the inverter circuit breaker on the panel anywhere on the panel (doesn't have to be on the opposite end of the incoming service), as long as I don't exceed the breaker serving the busbar plus 125% of the inverter output current... is this correct?

and my 3rd question: isn't 705.12(B)(2)(3)(a) in conflict with 705.12(A)? (A) is saying i can place the connection at the top (on the supply side, before the panel)... so shouldn't there be a limit anyway that's established by (B)(2)(3)(a)?

Thanks!
Maybe I am missing something, but my answer to your second question is no. In order to use what we commonly refer to as "the 120% rule", your backfed breaker has to be at the opposite end of the bus from the main breaker and the sum of 125% of the inverter maximum current (the rating of the PV breaker is irrelevant) and the rating of the main breaker cannot exceed 120% of the bus rating. If the sum of the ratings of the main breaker and 125% of the inverter maximum current is less than 100% of the bus rating, then you can place the PV breaker anywhere you want on the bus.

The answer to your third question is that they are not in conflict because 705.12(A) governs supply side connections while 705.12(B) covers load side connections. The reason you can place the connection at the top of the bus under 705.12(A) is that your connection is on the other side of the panel main breaker from the bus, so the bus is still protected. The available current on the line side of the main breaker is essentially infinite, so your 30A (or whatever) addition from PV doesn't change anything. You just need to be sure that if all the loads are shut off and all the PV output goes back to the grid, the service conductors can handle it; hence the answer to your first question is yes.
 
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Question (2) was on the 100% rule 705.12(B)(2)(3)(a), not the 120% rules 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b).

Cheers, Wayne
Ah, yes. Typing before coffee; sorry. I believe what I said was correct otherwise.
 
To understand why there is a difference between the implications 705.12(A) and 705.12(B)(2)(3)(a), consider the following.

Panelboards for loads in general, are routinely populated with more breakers than the total busbar rating, and more breakers than the main breaker rating. For instance, you could total the loads on a 200A panelboard, and see that they add up to 400A. You could even total the operating amps of all the connected loads, and find that it also exceeds 200A. If someone wanted to go out of their way and turn on every single load that they possibly could, they would overload the panelboard, and trip the main breaker. The underlying assumption is that this is an improbable event, and that not all of the loads draw their full rating simultaneously. There is diversity to the timing of when each branch circuit draws its full load, and there is a load calculation procedure in the NEC based on statistical models of user behavior to design your feeder and service sizes such that they are realistic for a likely total current draw, and this tripping the main is indeed an improbable event.

It goes without saying, that improbable does not mean impossible. Ordinarily, the fail-safe from exceeding the busbar rating of the panelboard, is that the main breaker trips before the service conductors and busbar get overloaded. Connect a PV source to that panelboard on the load side of the main, and it will add up with your main breaker, so that there is a chance that you do exceed your busbar rating with no fail-safes to protect against it. Connect on the same side of the bus as the main supply, and the current on the busbar will exceed the busbar rating when this happens. Connect on the opposite end, and we get to take a little bit of credit for the fact that Kirchhoff's current law works in our favor, as current is subtractive in opposite directions, instead of additive. Not full credit for Kirchhoff's current law, as you might optimistically think, because there are other factors that come in to play, which is why it is an industry compromise that it is a 120% rule and not a 200% rule.

When the interconnection is supply-side of any given panelboard's main breaker, the main breaker doesn't care that the power comes from multiple sources. The breaker protecting the panelboard will stop the total current from exceeding the busbar rating, regardless of what mix of sources supply the panelboard. This is why with supply-side interconnections per 705.12(A), you don't even need to think about protecting the busbar; the main breaker of the panelboard already does that for you.

While not explicitly stated, I see an issue with 705.12(A), on whether the limit should be the ampacity of the SERVICE CONDUCTORS is your limit in addition to the ampacity of the SERVICE. These are not necessarily interchangeable. Your service conductors might take credit for the 83% rule on a residential service, or the 240.4(B) next-size-up rule on a commercial service. Given 4/0AL service conductors on a 200A service, I would recommend a conservative approach, and a limit to 125% of your total system current to 180A, rather than 200A. Likewise, given 2 sets of 500 kcmil CU service conductors on an 800A commercial service, the conservative approach is to limit yourself such that 125% of your total system current to 760A, rather than 800A.
 
While not explicitly stated, I see an issue with 705.12(A), on whether the limit should be the ampacity of the SERVICE CONDUCTORS is your limit in addition to the ampacity of the SERVICE. . . . 125% . . . .
But to my understanding, the 125% factor in Article 705 is simply to account for continuous loading of non-100% rated breakers. So there's no need to apply the 125% factor to the service conductors themselves. And I don't think the mismatch can extend to the service conductors having an ampacity of less than 1/125% of the service rating.

Now in the case of a 100% rated breaker used for a supply side interconnection, I do agree that the phrase "rating of the service" in (2017) 705.12(A) needs to be read as the actual ampacity of the service conductors (with the understanding that the 83% residential factor does not change the ampacity).

Cheers, Wayne
 
While not explicitly stated, I see an issue with 705.12(A), on whether the limit should be the ampacity of the SERVICE CONDUCTORS is your limit in addition to the ampacity of the SERVICE.
Didn't the NEC clarify that in the 2021 code cycle? Before that, I believe it just said "the size of the service" without explicitly saying what defines it.
 
Didn't the NEC clarify that in the 2021 code cycle? Before that, I believe it just said "the size of the service" without explicitly saying what defines it.
Yes, (2020) 705.11(A) reads:

(A) Output Rating. The sum of the power source continuous current output ratings on a service, other than those controlled in accordance with 705.13, shall not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Yes, (2020) 705.11(A) reads:

(A) Output Rating. The sum of the power source continuous current output ratings on a service, other than those controlled in accordance with 705.13, shall not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.

Cheers, Wayne

This would mean that the 125% factor that is already standard for sizing the interconnection OCPD, would automatically put your operating current below the ampacity of the service conductors in the event that the service conductors use either the 83% rule or the next-size-up rule. By this logic, it means we could take full credit for the 200A service, and therefore have a system size of 160A behind a 200A interconnection OCPD (standard-rated).

Does this mean that there could be a situation where you need 250 kcmil AL conductors for the supply-side "tap" conductors of your line-side interconnection, even though they terminate on #4/0AL service conductors of the 200A service?

I put "tap" in quotation marks, because not everyone agrees that these should be considered tap conductors. That is the term that I'm choosing to use, as to me, this is the term that makes the most sense to call this section of conductor.
 
By this logic, it means we could take full credit for the 200A service, and therefore have a system size of 160A behind a 200A interconnection OCPD (standard-rated).
Sound correct to me and I see no issues.

Does this mean that there could be a situation where you need 250 kcmil AL conductors for the supply-side "tap" conductors of your line-side interconnection, even though they terminate on #4/0AL service conductors of the 200A service?
Seems like conductors upstream of the 200A breaker are service conductors and could be sized accordingly, i.e. 4/0 Al. Between the 200A breaker and your 160A maximum continuous current inverter you'd need to provide 200A ampacity conductors (e.g. 250 kcmil Al), unless your 200A breaker is 100% rated; then perhaps you could use 4/0 Al conductors and 240.4(B), given 705.30(B) Exception. [To do that you'd have to argue your way around the 705.12 requirements, which seems feasible.] Or in a dwelling unit supplied by a 3-wire service one could cite 310.12(C) and use 4/0 Al.

BTW, this is an example of what I see as an unnecessarily conservative treatment in the NEC of continuous currents: it should be sufficient to provide conductors with an ampacity of 100% of the continuous current, and of sufficient ampacity so that the OCPD can be sized at 125% of the continuous current under 240.4(B). But the applicable sections in 210, 215, and 705 require an ampacity of 125% of the continuous current.

Cheers, Wayne
 
This would mean that the 125% factor that is already standard for sizing the interconnection OCPD, would automatically put your operating current below the ampacity of the service conductors in the event that the service conductors use either the 83% rule or the next-size-up rule. By this logic, it means we could take full credit for the 200A service, and therefore have a system size of 160A behind a 200A interconnection OCPD (standard-rated).

Does this mean that there could be a situation where you need 250 kcmil AL conductors for the supply-side "tap" conductors of your line-side interconnection, even though they terminate on #4/0AL service conductors of the 200A service?

I put "tap" in quotation marks, because not everyone agrees that these should be considered tap conductors. That is the term that I'm choosing to use, as to me, this is the term that makes the most sense to call this section of conductor.
What it means to me is that the service conductors must be at least the same size as the PV conductors if they are the same metal, or the equivalent if different.
 
What it means to me is that the service conductors must be at least the same size as the PV conductors if they are the same metal, or the equivalent if different.
Seems to me the 2020 705.11(A) language would permit for example the following:

4/0 Al service conductors (180A 75C ampacity)
Splice box to 4/0 Al service conductors to 200A MB service panel for loads
300 kcmil Al service conductors (225A 75C ampacity)
225A breaker
300 kcmil Al PV conductors
225A combiner panel
180A of maximum inverter output current

Cheers, Wayne
 
Seems to me the 2020 705.11(A) language would permit for example the following:

4/0 Al service conductors (180A 75C ampacity)
Splice box to 4/0 Al service conductors to 200A MB service panel for loads
300 kcmil Al service conductors (225A 75C ampacity)
225A breaker
300 kcmil Al PV conductors
225A combiner panel
180A of maximum inverter output current

Cheers, Wayne
Kind of bizarre if that's what they really intended. It used to be that the definition of inverter output conductors extended all the wayback to the service point. I have no idea why they changed that.
 
If the sum of the ratings of the main breaker and 125% of the inverter maximum current is less than 100% of the bus rating, then you can place the PV breaker anywhere you want on the bus.
Yes, that's what I meant actually in my second question... placing it anywhere on the bus, and you cannot exceed 100%. Understood.
 
When the interconnection is supply-side of any given panelboard's main breaker, the main breaker doesn't care that the power comes from multiple sources. The breaker protecting the panelboard will stop the total current from exceeding the busbar rating, regardless of what mix of sources supply the panelboard. This is why with supply-side interconnections per 705.12(A), you don't even need to think about protecting the busbar; the main breaker of the panelboard already does that for you.
Understood now.
While not explicitly stated, I see an issue with 705.12(A), on whether the limit should be the ampacity of the SERVICE CONDUCTORS is your limit in addition to the ampacity of the SERVICE. These are not necessarily interchangeable. Your service conductors might take credit for the 83% rule on a residential service, or the 240.4(B) next-size-up rule on a commercial service. Given 4/0AL service conductors on a 200A service, I would recommend a conservative approach, and a limit to 125% of your total system current to 180A, rather than 200A. Likewise, given 2 sets of 500 kcmil CU service conductors on an 800A commercial service, the conservative approach is to limit yourself such that 125% of your total system current to 760A, rather than 800A.
That was in the back of my mind as well... if your service conductors are rated less than the service equipment OCPD. It makes sense to not go above the service conductor ratings.

EDIT: I see there's more posted after this, I'll read through it.
 
Yes, (2020) 705.11(A) reads:

(A) Output Rating. The sum of the power source continuous current output ratings on a service, other than those controlled in accordance with 705.13, shall not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
I can't follow the language. so if the continuous current output of the inverter is say, 82 amps... am I using 82 amps, 82*125% = 102.5 amps, or 110 amps (next size up breaker), when calculating so I don't exceed the ampacity of the service conductors?
 
so if the continuous current output of the inverter is say, 82 amps . . .
and that's the only inverter, then 705.11(A) requires that the service conductors have an ampacity of 82A.

Of course the conductors upstream and downstream of the upstream-most OCPD on the PV side are subject to other rules for sizing.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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