PV Solar, etc.

[Energy-Miser]

Does anyone see much interest where you are in solar or other alternative generation installation?

 

[got_nailed]

If you looking at solar as an investment then your looking at the wrong thing. The payback on solar is 8 to 12 years depending on where you live and your setup.

As far as using wind or hydro most of the time the cost per a watt is cheaper. With hydro you get fewer watts per an hour then with PV; but 24/7 and keeps going with out weather issues.

With wind power it can be a tricky. How many months will the wind blow like the 2 weeks that you watched it? Will someone build something down the road that will change the direction and speed of the wind where your turbine is?


I would think there would be more interest in solar water. Pay back would be about 4 years if sized properly. I do think that we will see more of theses once demand metering comes around in a few years for residential.

 

[Energy-Miser]

If you looking at solar as an investment then your looking at the wrong thing. The payback on solar is 8 to 12 years depending on where you live and your setup. ....

Thanks for your reply. Yes I agree that for most of these technologies the payback is just too long. However, some states do have subsidies that will make some of those options more attactive. e/m.

 

[JJWalecka]

I have read that State agencies are being more energy conservative. Compact fluorescent lamps were installed in the Governors office.


?An executive order, signed by Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick, mandates higher standards for energy efficiency in state buildings and greater use of renewable energy by all state agencies.?

State agencies must
?Obtain 15 percent of their electricity from clean renewable sources by 2012, and 30 percent by 2020?
?Use biofuels for 3 percent of their heating oil next winter, and 5 percent the following winter?

?The Massachusetts Executive Office of Environmental Affairs (EOEA) announced in late March its determination that the Final Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the 420-megawatt Cape Wind offshore wind project is adequate and complies with the Massachusetts Environmental Policy Act.?

From what I understand the Cape Wind project continues to wait for federal approval.
I am curious about other areas of the United States and their alternate energies.

Justin J. Walecka

 

[iwire]

Yes I agree that for most of these technologies the payback is just too long. However, some states do have subsidies that will make some of those options more attractive. e/m.

Along with marketing opportunities.

In this area we are seeing very large corporations spending a lot of money on PV installations, between the tax breaks, power company incentives and the fact they can say they are "Green" company in spite of any pollutants they may be disposing of makes it worth while.

This of course forgets that making the PV cells and the batteries is very un-green.

 

[petersonra]

the payback on solar PV just does not exist today unless someone else is subsidizing it. It is so far out that the time value of money far exceeds whatever you may or may not save on electricity.

there are a few exceptions, such as places that don't have electrical service. but for the most part, at this point in time it is a big loser, unless someone else is footing a big chunk of the bill.

ironically, low cost, and very low tech solar heating is very cost effective with no subsidies at all. But is not sexy enough I guess.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Along with marketing opportunities.

In this area we are seeing very large corporations spending a lot of money on PV installations, between the tax breaks, power company incentives and the fact they can say they are "Green" company in spite of any pollutants they may be disposing of makes it worth while.

This of course forgets that making the PV cells and the batteries is very un-green.

Yes it's true in many cases. These things will of course have to be looked at from the entire product life cycle perspective, up and down stream from raw material to manufacturing to disposal of the products at the end. There is a big debate for example on how much biofuels are helping or hurting the environment. As a nation we will need to be smart about where we're heading (in terms of energy choices, use and conservation), but that's going way above my paygrade!! e/m.

 

[Energy-Miser]

the payback on solar PV just does not exist today unless someone else is subsidizing it. It is so far out that the time value of money far exceeds whatever you may or may not save on electricity.

there are a few exceptions, such as places that don't have electrical service. but for the most part, at this point in time it is a big loser, unless someone else is footing a big chunk of the bill.

ironically, low cost, and very low tech solar heating is very cost effective with no subsidies at all. But is not sexy enough I guess.

Yes, I have looked into dealership opportunities for evacuated tube water heating systems. They make perfect sense for most areas, even work in cloudy conditions and save lots of money. I found out that you will need to have or work with a licensed plumber and probably have to fight over zealot home owner associations in most neighborhoods, but overall it could be a very lucrative business.
e/m

 

[Energy-Miser]

I have read that State agencies are being more energy conservative. Compact fluorescent lamps were installed in the Governors office. ...

Justin J. Walecka

Yes Justin, I understand that Mass. is very progressive along with California, and even NJ, in our area. PA governor too has announced pretty high marks. My state (Maryland) is moving along at a steady pace in terms of support, but nothing that will say wow let's all jump into this thing !! e/m.

 

[JJWalecka]

I have heard that a permit to install an Alternate energy source for a business or dwelling, say a wind turbine, is expensive and timely.
I am pro alternate energy. I hope that with every small step we take will encourage it.

Justin J. Walecka

 

[Energy-Miser]

I have heard that a permit to install an Alternate energy source for a business or dwelling, say a wind turbine, is expensive and timely.
I am pro alternate energy. I hope that with every small step we take will encourage it.

Justin J. Walecka

Here I know a company that does exclusively solar, not sure how they survive, but that's what they do. They deal with the solar end of it and state and federal incentives and all that, and install the panels, etc. but then have a conventional EC pull he permit and make the final connections
( BTW that EC is not us!! ). e/m.

 

[dduffee260]

With wind power it can be a tricky. How many months will the wind blow like the 2 weeks that you watched it? Will someone build something down the road that will change the direction and speed of the wind where your turbine is?

http://www.turby.nl/

I watched this a few weeks back on some science channel. This looks like the way wind power is headed. I don't know if the link will come up but if not then just copy and paste it. It comes up in Dutch or some other language but there is an english link at the top also.

 

[Energy-Miser]

http://www.turby.nl/

I watched this a few weeks back on some science channel. This looks like the way wind power is headed. I don't know if the link will come up but if not then just copy and paste it. It comes up in Dutch or some other language but there is an english link at the top also.

Thanks for the link. Looks like wind is making great progress in Europe (Denmark, Germany, Spain for example). Here too in Texas and California ...
e/m.

 

[got_nailed]

Dduffee260
I have looked at the Turby. Yes there has been a lot of talk about that type of turbine (I can?t think of its design). Most of there problems have been the cut in speed. Most of the time the cut in speed is so high that they waist a lot of time just sitting there when there is viable wind but the blades have stopped. Most of the ones in production and that are working monitor the wind speed and will use a small motor to start the blades turning when there is viable energy but when the blades are not spinning. I see they claim that it will cut in at 4 m/s and cut out at 14 m/s but I would have to see it to believe it.

I have lived off grid and grid tie for 10 years. I have done a lot of reading and know how it all works but I don?t keep up with the newest thing that?s out there.

What?s C 11,466.00 in the USD?
I wonder what the next new thing is going to be. I bet it will be a nock off of a design that is being used already.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Dduffee260
I have looked at the Turby. Yes there has been a lot of talk about ... .

The design I believe is called vertical axis wind turbine. They are much less common than the horizontal axis types that sit on top of very tall towers. The advantage of the vertical axis is that you don't need the tall tower, which cuts down on that expense and also makes servicing easier. Additionally, you don't need to turn your turbine into the wind for it to work (as you would with the horizontal axis style). The disadvantage of course is that down near the ground wind speed is much smaller and air flow is more turbulent compared to 300 feet up high. e/m.

 

[got_nailed]

Yes it’s a vertical axis turbine; thank you. At 300 feet what about the cut out speed of the turbine? You would be close to the edge of it most of the time.

As far as a horizontal turbine they will turn them self into the wind and will even tilt out of the wind if it is to strong.

I need to say that I’m thinking more on a residential point of view. It looks like your point of view is a bit different then mine. You want to sell and install.

Yes, I have looked into dealership opportunities for evacuated tube water heating systems. They make perfect sense for most areas, even work in cloudy conditions and save lots of money. I found out that you will need to have or work with a licensed plumber and probably have to fight over zealot home owner associations in most neighborhoods, but overall it could be a very lucrative business.
e/m

If they will not let you use a heat exchanger then they will not let you use a turbine or a few PV panels.

I know most states give incentives for PV. But there are not many that give them for bio, wind, and hydro. I thought that every stat would get a huge government grant every year if the burnt there trash to make power. If our states would get off there ass then would we have all the same problems?

How can PV be clean? By the time you look at what it takes to make a panel and at the end of proper disposal of the units.

***edit***
I think the whole were killing the planet is coming back.

Read this web site. The global has a 26,000 year rotation. That says a lot.
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/time/precession.html

Look at this.
http://ultimateglobalwarmingchallenge.com/
if you know would you claim the prize?

 

[Energy-Miser]

Yes it?s a vertical axis turbine; thank you. At 300 feet what about the cut out speed of the turbine?...

I think the cut out speed is around 50 mph, if I remember correctly. You are right that small wind turbines will automatically turn to the wind, but for the bigger commercial ones they will have to be motor controlled into the wind. State incentives are all over the place and HOA's will have something to say about both solar and definitely wind. Small wind for residential is probably only practical for rural areas where you have a lot of land, andof course you will need battery backup, or grid connection to stay lit when the wind is not blowing ..., e/m.

 

[e57]

30 years of failed promises of effieciency in the PV end. Thermal like some of the super solar towers and such look promising - as there is not better way to creat electricity than a rotating magnetic field IMO.

 

[Energy-Miser]

30 years of failed promises of effieciency in the PV end. Thermal like some of the super solar towers and such look promising - as there is not better way to creat electricity than a rotating magnetic field IMO.

PV efficiency has hovered around 12 to 15%, and progress has been painfully slow as you pointed out. There are more efficient technologies out there in the labs, but they are a lot costlier and not commercial yet for that reason. I think the concentrated solar thermal electric generation is becoming more and more economical. It generates steam, which is used to turn a turbine to generate the alternating current much like a coal fired plant would. e/m.

 

[dereckbc]

PV efficiency has hovered around 12 to 15%, and progress has been painfully slow as you pointed out. There are more efficient technologies out there in the labs, but they are a lot costlier and not commercial yet for that reason. I think the concentrated solar thermal electric generation is becoming more and more economical. It generates steam, which is used to turn a turbine to generate the alternating current much like a coal fired plant would. e/m.

Thermal solar is less efficient than PV cells, and even more expensive to install. Several of the Thermal plants in California have been shut down because they are too expensive to operate and maintain.