PVC Break tough decision

[Cletis]

When you run a long underground 300 ft pvc underground service with thwn in it (glued and all) and someone pulls a knucklehead move and makes a small break in it (under 1cm) and you watch water rushing in do you (and its around 20F)

A. Hurry up and backfill it
B. Get the ductape out
C. Rip the whole thing out and redo
D. Other (explain)

Im asking for a friend

 

[rambojoe]

i would be interested in your answer and the friends answer first.

 

[ptonsparky]

D. YOU BONE HEADED IDIOT!!! WHAT FENCE POST DID THEY GET YOUR BRAIN TRANSPLANT FROM?!

 

[gadfly56]

D. YOU BONE HEADED IDIOT!!! WHAT FENCE POST DID THEY GET YOUR BRAIN TRANSPLANT FROM?!

:lol::lol: That's one I haven't heard before; have to write that down.

 

[JFletcher]

Easy, your friend has to fix it. Or not. Not your problem.

you have to tell us how in the world you, I mean your friend, broke an underground conduit.

Did you snap the pipe in half trying to backfill it, or did somebody accidentally discharge a 9mm into it?
Inquiring minds want to know.

The water rushing in is not a problem, underground conduit is consider a wet location anyway.

 

[junkhound]

D> PVC glue cut piece of coupling over the hole (assuming wire not damaged) and backfill

 

[Cletis]

crack

crack

Well, "my friend" decided to just slide all the wire in conduit on grass then kick it in all at once when all glued up and done. Well, "my friend" said when his guy kicked it in it got hung up on a tree root and the weight, angle and cold temps just busted the bell end all up so he pondered some duct tape for a sec and decided that the pipes fill up with water anyhow eventually just to backfill, get paid and move on to the next job

 

[Cow]

Well, "my friend" decided to just slide all the wire in conduit on grass then kick it in all at once when all glued up and done. Well, "my friend" said when his guy kicked it in it got hung up on a tree root and the weight, angle and cold temps just busted the bell end all up so he pondered some duct tape for a sec and decided that the pipes fill up with water anyhow eventually just to backfill, get paid and move on to the next job

That's how diy'ers put pipe together.:happyno:

The saying, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

They make split repair kits for 1.25" and larger sizes that work well for this. You can also telescope them off each other for long cracks/breaks. My personal record is seven 24" split repair kits in a row. That was not a good day.....

http://www.kraloyfittings.com/Content/Products/Product.aspx?ProductId=50

 

[ptonsparky]

The pipes will fill with water and the wire itself will last for years directly buried, until a rodent finds them or the broken conduit settles at different angles piercing the insulation.

That’s what he gets for pulling wire before the conduit is installed properly.

I don’t like to wish ill will, but I hope it fails before the warranty period is over.

 

[chris1971]

When you run a long underground 300 ft pvc underground service with thwn in it (glued and all) and someone pulls a knucklehead move and makes a small break in it (under 1cm) and you watch water rushing in do you (and its around 20F)

A. Hurry up and backfill it
B. Get the ductape out
C. Rip the whole thing out and redo
D. Other (explain)

Im asking for a friend

Did u hit an H2O line?

 

[JFletcher]

Well, "my friend" decided to just slide all the wire in conduit on grass then kick it in all at once when all glued up and done. Well, "my friend" said when his guy kicked it in it got hung up on a tree root and the weight, angle and cold temps just busted the bell end all up so he pondered some duct tape for a sec and decided that the pipes fill up with water anyhow eventually just to backfill, get paid and move on to the next job

I have to say that is pretty hack... Aside from the installation being a 300.18 violation, there is no way the wires were terminated at either end if the conduit was just kicked into a trench... Worst case scenario is the break is right in the middle, you have to go attach a pull string to the conductors on one end, slide off a hundred and fifty feet of conduit, cut off the broken ends, install a coupler, glue it back together, slide it all back in.

unless that trench is perfectly bedded and backfilled, it is likely that the broken ends will wind up acting like a shear on the conductors inside and eventually cause a failure.

Cow, thank you for the link... That is very slick.

 

[rambojoe]

That’s what he gets for pulling wire before the conduit is installed properly.

.

this really works good- sometimes its a life saver too..but definitely nothing wrong with the method. like if the trench meanders around a retention or the back hoe guy has the "brown flu"..
the key thing here is to lay in the now very heavy pipe with some mule line!

 

[ptonsparky]

this really works good- sometimes its a life saver too..but definitely nothing wrong with the method. like if the trench meanders around a retention or the back hoe guy has the "brown flu"..
the key thing here is to lay in the now very heavy pipe with some mule line!

The catch is if you break, you fix.

 

[Cletis]

I have to say that is pretty hack... Aside from the installation being a 300.18 violation, there is no way the wires were terminated at either end if the conduit was just kicked into a trench... Worst case scenario is the break is right in the middle, you have to go attach a pull string to the conductors on one end, slide off a hundred and fifty feet of conduit, cut off the broken ends, install a coupler, glue it back together, slide it all back in.

unless that trench is perfectly bedded and backfilled, it is likely that the broken ends will wind up acting like a shear on the conductors inside and eventually cause a failure.

Cow, thank you for the link... That is very slick.

I appreciate your concern but I stopped by my friends job when this happened. I don't think it will be a ll gloom and doom as you suggest. The trench was dug 36" so below frost line and very flat with fine powdered horse pasture dirt. The break was small crack really at flange not large and jagged as you suggest. Now, if it was buried higher up near frost line or higher on uneven ground with rocks, garbage etc and a large jagged crack I could see all that happening someday maybe. I'll let me friend know of your concern

 

[Cow]

this really works good- sometimes its a life saver too..but definitely nothing wrong with the method. like if the trench meanders around a retention or the back hoe guy has the "brown flu"..
the key thing here is to lay in the now very heavy pipe with some mule line!

I disagree.

If you have to install pull string or wire in the conduit before it's dropped in the ditch because you're afraid the ditch "meanders" too much, then you're doing it wrong. The fact the backhoe operator may have done a poor job, doesn't necessarily mean you ALSO have to follow behind him and do a poor job. I will usually let the digging crew know what I expect before they dig a ditch. That's not to say a few times, I still have got less than acceptable results. In the worst cases, they had to go back and redig/smooth their ditches. When we do 800'+ runs, I get extra picky too.

Code issues aside, if you're going to the trouble of installing conduit, which by design facilitates the installation(or removal) of wire at a later date, common sense dictates no matter how the ditch is dug or backfilled, you should be able to get wire/pull string in or out of the conduit after it's installed.

 

[Strathead]

I disagree.

If you have to install pull string or wire in the conduit before it's dropped in the ditch because you're afraid the ditch "meanders" too much, then you're doing it wrong. The fact the backhoe operator may have done a poor job, doesn't necessarily mean you ALSO have to follow behind him and do a poor job. I will usually let the digging crew know what I expect before they dig a ditch. That's not to say a few times, I still have got less than acceptable results. In the worst cases, they had to go back and redig/smooth their ditches. When we do 800'+ runs, I get extra picky too.

Code issues aside, if you're going to the trouble of installing conduit, which by design facilitates the installation(or removal) of wire at a later date, common sense dictates no matter how the ditch is dug or backfilled, you should be able to get wire/pull string in or out of the conduit after it's installed.

I agree with you, but that said, the people who are making it a blanket statement that pulling wire before the conduit is fully installed, while certainly a violation of code, is a hack move, I don't agree with. I have done it and I will do it again. It is an asinine code. It is means and methods and it has no business being in the code.

 

[Cow]

I have done it and I will do it again. It is an asinine code. It is means and methods and it has no business being in the code.

Why do you personally do it?

 

[Strathead]

Why do you personally do it?

Whenever I hook up a motor with a flex connection. When I am removing and reinstalling a panel, technically you are breaking this code. When on end isn't complete but I want to finish what I am doing. The code should be that the conductors are installed to prevent damage to the insulation.

 

[roger]

Whenever I hook up a motor with a flex connection. When I am removing and reinstalling a panel, technically you are breaking this code. When on end isn't complete but I want to finish what I am doing. The code should be that the conductors are installed to prevent damage to the insulation.

There is the "prefab" rage too.

Roger

 

[JFletcher]

Whenever I hook up a motor with a flex connection. When I am removing and reinstalling a panel, technically you are breaking this code. When on end isn't complete but I want to finish what I am doing. The code should be that the conductors are installed to prevent damage to the insulation.

Exception to 300.18 allows you to have whips to things like HVAC and Motors not assembled. conduit going to a panel that you're changing out, a panel board is not a raceway.

I have put wires in incomplete raceways that were later completed... Though it seems to me that many of the people that do it this way, they do it because they could not otherwise pull the wire through the Raceway once it's completed... eg, it has 6 quarter bends in it, so instead of putting a junction in the middle, they build the raceway around the wires.

perhaps I do not have enough practical experience, however I have never seen a Raceway in a trench that would have been easier to connect to a panel board or disconnect with the wire already installed.

If I understood Cletus friend installation, he would not have broken the Raceway by kicking it into the trench if it were already in the trench and fully assembled in the first place.