Qualified Person should be redefined

[brian john]

I forgot to mention, installing busway switches into energized busways, removing covers and hitting energized bus bus.

Electricians need to know their limitations. not let supervisors/management/ego push them into unsafe situations, understand the dangers involved.

And try to comprehend that 480/277 ain't 208/120, and 5KV and above is damn dangerous, this ain't wire nut voltage. BACK OFF if you are not qualified and YOU NEED TO KNOW your limitations and qualifications.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have no arguement with the requirement that electricians be qualified, it is just my opinion that rules setting the qualifications do no belong in the NEC. They are outside the scope of the document.

 

[zog]

Based upon my experience I am not talking about the guys that claim they can do everything, I am talking about the averaged licensed electrician, energizing a 480/277 bolted pressure switch after a fault without clearing or locating the source of the GFP operation, energizing a new switchboard without testing it, closing a CB into a fault, working stuff hot without a clue as to how dangerous it really is, grounding neutrals downstream from the main service, putting 30 current carrying conductors in a 2" EMT without derating, drilling into a energized switchboard, pushing fish tapes into energized switchboards, not verifying phasing on an UPS install, bypass/wrap around bypass, installing 250 VAC equipment in 480/277 vac systems, not verifying testing parallel conductors and creating a bolted fault, energizing wet distribution equipment, AND BOOM GOES THE ELECTRICIAN.

And the list goes on and on.

Amen brother, glad you said it first. Now i do want to add to this (I am sure Brian agrees for the most part) that most of these guys are nowhere to be found in this forum (Mostly), the people in this forum are here because they want to find the right answers for questions they have and are smart enough to ask questions or know thier limitations.

Then again Brian, without those guys out there, you and I would probally be out of a job.

 

[cadpoint]

Based upon my experience I am not talking about the guys that claim they can do everything, I am talking about the averaged licensed electrician, energizing a 480/277 bolted pressure switch after a fault without clearing or locating the source of the GFP operation, energizing a new switchboard without testing it, closing a CB into a fault, working stuff hot without a clue as to how dangerous it really is, grounding neutrals downstream from the main service, putting 30 current carrying conductors in a 2" EMT without derating, drilling into a energized switchboard, pushing fish tapes into energized switchboards, not verifying phasing on an UPS install, bypass/wrap around bypass, installing 250 VAC equipment in 480/277 vac systems, not verifying testing parallel conductors and creating a bolted fault, energizing wet distribution equipment, AND BOOM GOES THE ELECTRICIAN.

And the list goes on and on.

I can only HOPE everyone READS this post !

Day in Day Out, alot of us, Don't have to deal this!

 

[ramsy]

I forgot to mention, ..Electricians need to know their limitations. not let supervisors/management/ego push them into unsafe situations, understand the dangers involved. ..BACK OFF if you are not qualified and YOU NEED TO KNOW your limitations and qualifications.

Roger that, but never to be enforced without requiring a fire watch, for energized work.

Duties of a Fire Watch
? Understanding the location and nature of the Hot Work.
? Remain in the area while the work is being performed and remain in constant communication range with person(s) doing the Hot Work.
? The Fire Watch is authorized to stop the Hot Work whenever work conditions become unsafe or if the work description on the permit is exceeded.

1) NFPA 51B Standard for Fire Prevention During Welding, Cutting, and Other Hot Work,
2) OSHA 29 CFR 1926.352

 

[quogueelectric]

Based upon my experience I am not talking about the guys that claim they can do everything, I am talking about the averaged licensed electrician, energizing a 480/277 bolted pressure switch after a fault without clearing or locating the source of the GFP operation, energizing a new switchboard without testing it, closing a CB into a fault, working stuff hot without a clue as to how dangerous it really is, grounding neutrals downstream from the main service, putting 30 current carrying conductors in a 2" EMT without derating, drilling into a energized switchboard, pushing fish tapes into energized switchboards, not verifying phasing on an UPS install, bypass/wrap around bypass, installing 250 VAC equipment in 480/277 vac systems, not verifying testing parallel conductors and creating a bolted fault, energizing wet distribution equipment, AND BOOM GOES THE ELECTRICIAN.

And the list goes on and on.

30?? I thought I could fit 72 oh 73 if you pull it in with a manlift and a rope. Yes I have seen it done no kidding.

 

[nakulak]

I think the idea for the OP is excellent, and is within the spirit of the intent of the NEC (to protect persons and property).

 

[frizbeedog]

I think the idea for the OP is excellent, and is within the spirit of the intent of the NEC (to protect persons and property).

But what change will those few words really effect above and beyond it's current wording?

 

[JohnJ0906]

Qualified for one task, or in one area of the trade, doesn't mean that a person is qualified in another area, or for another task.

 

[brian john]

I am not trying to be a preacher or claim to be better than anyone but I have been on way too many after explosion projects (one is too many) where the electrician made mistakes, or the equipment was faulty, either way someone was severely injured, and worse. Very sickening feeling, and when in some (most) circumstances you know it could have been avoided, the feelings are worse.

 

[joe tedesco]

No Personal Attacks Please!

No Personal Attacks Please!

From the field!

"The most effective training is the video presentations that show people with their fingers, toes, etc. blown off.'

I agree!

Donnie's Accident Video "GRAPHIC"

Listen!

My proposal is only an attempt to strengthen the definition, and to start the minds of the industry toward the end result ELECTRICAL SAFETY!

For those who are familiar with 70E and OSHA, I can see where some would like to see the safety rules in the NEC.

The advertisements for the NFPA National Electrical Code? 2008 Edition (NFPA 70) with Industry-driven changes in the 2008 NEC? indicate that the changes redefine electrical safety!

I think that anyone who will work on any electrical system should be trained and the present definition indicates that, so what is the problem?

Let's see what the proposal action will be by the members of CMP 1.

 

[zog]

From the field!

"The most effective training is the video presentations that show people with their fingers, toes, etc. blown off.'

Sorry, no they are not, maybe 20 years ago they were but there is too much of that shown to us everyday (CSI, detroit local news, Democtrtic debates) that we are not as affected by it.
The most effective videos to show are the ones that the viewer can relate to the person and "hits home". Eddie Adams and Charlie Morecraft or 2 great examples of these type of videos for arc flash.

This is from a study that came out a few years ago, I will see if I can find it and post the study.

 

[mdshunk]

Sorry, no they are not, maybe 20 years ago they were but there is too much of that shown to us everyday ...

You might be a bit jaded, but I still get a certain emotion from seeing them. Particularly when they are accompanied with the story of how it happened. I think to myself, "I've done that a million times, and this could have happened to me!".

 

[zog]

You might be a bit jaded, but I still get a certain emotion from seeing them. Particularly when they are accompanied with the story of how it happened. I think to myself, "I've done that a million times, and this could have happened to me!".

I am just posting infomration from an educational psychology course. I have a few videos that make grown men cry every time I show them to my students, the gory ones gross them out and they will remmember them, but the real life ones that really hit home are the ones that change the way they look at life and thier jobs.

 

[brian john]

I am just posting information from an educational psychology course. I have a few videos that make grown men cry every time I show them to my students, the gory ones gross them out and they will remember them, but the real life ones that really hit home are the ones that change the way they look at life and their jobs.

I still cannot watch Bambi and Old Yeller, I worked out of driver ed when they put the gore on and I do the same with these vids...I know, I do not need to see this.

 

[joe tedesco]

Please no personal attacks!

Please no personal attacks!

zog:

These videos you mention, can I see or can I obtain some samples or copies?

I am always interested in hearing the opinions from Texas people when it comes to a very severe criminal problem in your State such as:

http://www.license.state.tx.us/PressReleases/candd022808.htm

What is the subject matter of your courses?

Have you seen the video "Electrical Burns and You?"

 

[zog]

zog:

These videos you mention, can I see or can I obtain some samples or copies?

I am always interested in hearing the opinions from Texas people when it comes to a very severe criminal problem in your State such as:

http://www.license.state.tx.us/PressReleases/candd022808.htm

What is the subject matter of your courses?

Have you seen the video "Electrical Burns and You?"

Easy Joe, where is the personal attack you speak of?

And what makes you think I am in Texas?

What makes you think I am an EC?

From what I hear about the people in Boston getting shocked from streetlights and grates, well people in glass houses......

My courses are for Substation techs and Engineers, HV workers, etc, hands on HV type applications. I also have taught many 70E and OSHA 1910.260 courses for compliance officers (OSHA), safety mamangers, and industrial plants.

Electrical burns and you is a decent video made by the LA dept of Water and Power. Lots of blood and guts, but most LV guys dont relate to it very well.

The Eddie Adams fatality is not published, only avaiable from the company to be used with permissions. "Remmember Charlie" is a good "hit home" video for the value of PPE for arc flash protection. Charlie Morecraft and I did several conference presentations together, he dosent do live talks anymore but his video is vailable from Pheonix Safety management.

 

[iwire]

The most effective videos to show are the ones that the viewer can relate to the person and "hits home". Eddie Adams and Charlie Morecraft or 2 great examples of these type of videos for arc flash

The last company I worked for showed us one or two of Charlie Morecraft's videos.

They where very good.

 

[zog]

The last company I worked for showed us one or two of Charlie Morecraft's videos.

They where very good.

Charlie is a great guy, when all of this arc flash stuuf started catching on I had to follow his act a few times at electrical safety conferences, I finally had to talk him into following me instead, he is a tough act to follow.

 

[K2500]

I am always interested in hearing the opinions from Texas people when it comes to a very severe criminal problem in your State such as:

http://www.license.state.tx.us/PressReleases/candd022808.htm

I don't believe that the problem is, in any way, limited to the state of Texas. I have not searched for information released by other states, but I do believe the fact that they release this information may skew the perception.

The penaltys may not be as harsh as they should be,
http://www.license.state.tx.us/enforcement/elecsanctions.htm
but, in refrence to your earlier post they may meet ? 19.05, or other statutes http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000019.00.htm
BTW, what happened to those found liable, Listen!?

I have not seen the video "Electrical Burns and You?", I have seen the gory pictures I do live in Texas.

Of course safety is always promoted, but I think in many places it takes a back seat, until it's time to renew the insurance.