question on blood donation area

[Inspectorcliff]

Is a place where a bed/chair is located to give blood a patient care area as per 517? Why?

 

[jim dungar]

Is a place where a bed/chair is located to give blood a patient care area as per 517? Why?

I think this decision should be made by the building code authorities.

 

[raider1]

This question has been discussed before.

Here is the definition of healthcare facility:

Health Care Facilities. Buildings or portions of buildings in which medical, dental, psychiatric, nursing, obstetrical, or surgical care are provided. Health care facilities include, but are not limited to, hospitals, nursing homes, limited care facilities, clinics, medical and dental offices, and ambulatory care centers, whether permanent or movable.

And here is the definition of patient care area:

Patient Care Area. Any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated. Areas of a health care facility in which patient care is administered are classified as general care areas or critical care areas. The governing body of the facility designates these areas in accordance with the type of patient care anticipated and with the following definitions of the area classification.

Chris

 

[charlie b]

Get together with your brother Knights of Columbus or your fellow Masons or your church group or whatever charitable organization you belong to, and sponsor a blood drive. They will set up in the school gymnasium or a classroom or an office room or a cafeteria or wherever you can give them space. Donation of blood is not a health care activity. You are not treating the person giving blood.

 

[steve66]

Get together with your brother Knights of Columbus or your fellow Masons or your church group or whatever charitable organization you belong to, and sponsor a blood drive. They will set up in the school gymnasium or a classroom or an office room or a cafeteria or wherever you can give them space. Donation of blood is not a health care activity. You are not treating the person giving blood.

I think blood donation does count as "patient care". If you have a room or space or area dedicated to blood donations, I think it is fair to treat that space different than the church cafeteria. The curch cafeteria may occasionally be used for blood donations, but that's not the same as a space dedicated for that function.

Steve

 

[charlie b]

I think blood donation does count as "patient care".

I believe this question has been debated, at length, on this forum before. My view continues to be that drawing blood is neither an "examination" nor a "treatment." You do not ascertain the physical condition of the donors by an inspection of the fluid drawn from their bodies, so this is not an "examination." You do not prescribe any medications on the basis of any lab results of the donated blood, so there is no "treatment" being administered.

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Ok already

Ok already

I agree sort of kind of sometimes, Your ELKS, Church or any other group can do a blood donation type thing, In Colorado we have the local St. Mary's Hospital Bus that drives to different towns and accepts qualified donors for 4-6 hours a day. So, with all of that being said. I guess 517 does NOT apply anymore than the Cafeteria at the local School House. Even if the apparently healthy donor should fall ill (we hope not) then it is still just an incident. Not until we get him to the listed rooms under 517 does giving blood full under those areas. With all of that garbage out of my system. Thanks, Hey, Raider I appreciate you reiterating what the Code said, but I didn't catch where that addressed the question.
Many thanks.

 

[raider1]

Raider I appreciate you reiterating what the Code said, but I didn't catch where that addressed the question.

I didn't do a very good job of trying to point out that this is a question that you will have to figure out pretty much for yourself by reading the definitions of healthcare facility and patient care area. As you could see by the couple of responses there are varying opinions on this subject and you won't get a collective definitive answer from this forum.

Sorry for the confusion.

Chris

 

[steve66]

I believe this question has been debated, at length, on this forum before.

There is one thing we can agree on, Charlie!!

Steve

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Get em Charlie...

Get em Charlie...

I was concerned that it may be an issue, granted, but when you look at what is happening and where it is happening, I can see that we need to either completely rewrite the book on where a person is allowed to give blood or understand that it really isn't treating a patient. That person could become one but if he runs under a truck he could be one too and anyway. Thanks. 517 doesn't apply in my mind.

 

[iwire]

I agree with Steve

If you have a room or space or area dedicated to blood donations, I think it is fair to treat that space different than the church cafeteria. The curch cafeteria may occasionally be used for blood donations, but that's not the same as a space dedicated for that function.

I sometimes use my bedroom as a closet, that does not mean it is a closet.

At least consult the AHJ before proceeding.

 

[charlie b]

I sometimes use my bedroom as a closet, that does not mean it is a closet.

I sometimes accumulate a pile of clothes on my bedroom floor. Do I need to install a laundry circuit in that room? :grin:

 

[dcspector]

I sometimes accumulate a pile of clothes on my bedroom floor. Do I need to install a laundry circuit in that room? :grin:

This is ridiculous. If the Human skin is punctured in this so called room then it is a PCA.....lets not get off topic. Ryan, myself,and many others have agreed with this in the not so recent past. it is a patient care area.

 

[charlie b]

This is ridiculous.

No. It was just a poor attempt at humor, in response to Bob?s closet comment. A close inspection of his post and mine will reveal that I was agreeing with that closet comment. My apologies for taking us off topic.

If the Human skin is punctured in this so called room then it is a PCA.

You are going to have to let me disagree with you there (you, Ryan, and the others).

My dictionary defines ?patient? as a person undergoing medical treatment. That means there is a concern for that person?s health, attempts to discern the state of that person?s health, and actions taken to restore that person?s health. That person. The patient. A person donating blood has no concern for his own health, is not there to learn the state of his own health, and does not expect any actions to be taken to restore his own health. There is no ?care? being given to the donor. That is well and good, because there is nobody present who is capable of providing care. There is no doctor, no nurse, no nurse practitioner, not so much as a student nurse; there is just a phlebotomist. The phlebotomist has no equipment to monitor vital signs, no training on how to use such equipment or to interpret its indications, and no license to intervene in any situation for which the donor?s health appears to be at risk. If the donor experiences a health issue during or after donating blood, all the phlebotomist can do is to call 911.

I am all for doing things that make sense. If the owner of the facility wants to pay for any additional electrical installation items, he is most welcome to do so. What I would not like to see is an inspector require what the NEC does not require. In my opinion, the NEC does not require the process of donating blood to have any special considerations be given to its electrical distribution system.

 

[jim dungar]

If the Human skin is punctured in this so called room then it is a PCA.....lets not get off topic.

Can you quote a code that says this is part of the required description for determing a patient care facility?

Supposing that you as the electrical inspector do call this subject location a patient care facility, exactly what parts of 517 apply? Per 517.2, this is not a critical care area because no one is intended to be connected to line-operated, electromedical devices.

517.13 - yes
517.14 - no an emergency system is not required as there is no critical care
517.16 - yes
517.17 - no, 517.18(A) - no see exception No.2
517.18(B) - no, see 517.2 patient bed location which requires sleeping OR critical care
517.18(C) - yes
517.19 - no, no critical care
517.20 - yes
517.21 - yes
517.25 and greater - no

All I can see as being generally required are, isolated ground receptacles, and metal raceway or cable.

 

[dcspector]

Charlie b and Jim Dungar,

This is a lot for me to digest at this time......great points and makes sense. I need to evaluate my thinking pattern on this. I have been told this and that regarding PCA.....I have been told once the skin is penetrated then....the resistance issue. I hear ya'll.

 

[steve66]

Can you quote a code that says this is part of the required description for determing a patient care facility?

Supposing that you as the electrical inspector do call this subject location a patient care facility, exactly what parts of 517 apply? Per 517.2, this is not a critical care area because no one is intended to be connected to line-operated, electromedical devices.

517.13 - yes
517.14 - no an emergency system is not required as there is no critical care
517.16 - yes
517.17 - no, 517.18(A) - no see exception No.2
517.18(B) - no, see 517.2 patient bed location which requires sleeping OR critical care
517.18(C) - yes
517.19 - no, no critical care
517.20 - yes
517.21 - yes
517.25 and greater - no

All I can see as being generally required are, isolated ground receptacles, and metal raceway or cable.

I can agree with all that, except 517.20. I wouldn't think there would be any wet locations around a blood donation chair.

Steve

 

[iwire]

I sometimes accumulate a pile of clothes on my bedroom floor. Do I need to install a laundry circuit in that room? :grin:

No, and that was exactly the point.

The fact the Red Cross may sometimes take blood at the local high school gym does not make that gym a PCA.

But build a room specifically for the collection of blood and IMO that is a PCA.

I would be willing to bet that in that room built for the collection of blood they will have other medical equipment on hand for the rare occasion when the donor goes south.

I would not make any decision without taking to the AHJ.

 

[ryan_618]

I don't recall stating that the breaking of human skin in and of itself creates a patient care area (I may have, but I don't remember it).

I personally would not call the area a patient care area. There is no increased hazard concerning the use of electricity in this situation. If the human skin is punctured and there is electrical equipment in the vicinity (including electromedical devices) then I would take issue. As Charlie stated, however, blood drives occur all over the place. We have them every year in my office, and it isn't wired in accordance with 517.

 

[charlie b]

I would be willing to bet that in that room built for the collection of blood they will have other medical equipment on hand for the rare occasion when the donor goes south.

I would take that bet. But even if there were such additional equipment, then it would be the presence of that other equipment, and not the blood donation process, that would cause this to be a PCA. A phlebotomist will not be licensed to operate such equipment. So if it is there, then a nurse is also there. I agree that a place designed to be staffed by a nurse would be a PCA. But a place designed to be staffed only by a phlebotomist would not be a PCA.

So to your ?ask the AHJ,? I would add ?ask the owner what activities are intended to be carried out in that space, and what level of medical personnel will be on staff.