Question regarding where power goes

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hhsting said:
Who told electric current is just electrons? Electric current is movement of charged particles and their are two: protons and electrons. So then protons can also be involved or are moved.
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They certainly are involved in batteries.
 
K8MHZ said:
Charles Augustin de Coulomb

He even counted them. 6.24 x 10*18 (10 to the 18th power) electrons passing one point per second is one ampere.
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Ha! Buddy electrical field moves both protons and electrons Not just electrons. There are circuits where only protons move. Solar panels electrical field from light if strong enough can knockout protons not just electron.
 
hhsting said:
Who told electric current is just electrons? Electric current is movement of charged particles and their are two: protons and electrons. So then protons can also be involved or are moved.
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Don't forget holes and ions.
 
hhsting said:
Holes are positive so they are protons
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Protons are bound in the nuclei of the atoms, that in a solid, remain in the structure among the atoms. If you change the proton count of any atom, you change the elemental identity. The protons are not involved in establishing the electric current in a solid material. It is the electrons that carry the current in any manmade circuit of solid materials, and it is an artifact of history that we assigned the electron as negative, thus making our convention of current flow in the opposite direction of what is really flowing

In a plasma with hydrogen as one of the substances, you would see individual protons as charge carriers. In the human nervous system, positive sodium ions work as charge carriers.

What holes are, is positions in the crystal lattice that would otherwise be filled with an electron, but due to doping the semiconductor with an element that has one less valance electron, there is a missing electron from the valance and conduction bands. For example, boron used in p-type silicon. The silicon atom normally has 4 electrons involved in bonding among its 4 neighbors. When you replace a certain amount of these silicon atoms with a boron atom, you end up with a position that lacks an electron, and can conduct throughout the lattice as if it were a positive charge.
 
K8MHZ said:
Could you explain that?
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Protons and electrons both circulate in the chemistry of battery electrolytes. The protons circulate within the cells, and the electrons circulate outside them, through the load circuit.

That's my understanding.
 
Carultch said:
Protons are bound in the nuclei of the atoms, that in a solid, remain in the structure among the atoms. If you change the proton count of any atom, you change the elemental identity. The protons are not involved in establishing the electric current in a solid material. It is the electrons that carry the current in any manmade circuit of solid materials, and it is an artifact of history that we assigned the electron as negative, thus making our convention of current flow in the opposite direction of what is really flowing

In a plasma with hydrogen as one of the substances, you would see individual protons as charge carriers. In the human nervous system, positive sodium ions work as charge carriers.

What holes are, is positions in the crystal lattice that would otherwise be filled with an electron, but due to doping the semiconductor with an element that has one less valance electron, there is a missing electron from the valance and conduction bands. For example, boron used in p-type silicon. The silicon atom normally has 4 electrons involved in bonding among its 4 neighbors. When you replace a certain amount of these silicon atoms with a boron atom, you end up with a position that lacks an electron, and can conduct throughout the lattice as if it were a positive charge.
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If you have electrical field in medium it can move both protons and electrons.

Battery, generators, utility thru power plants generators produce electrical field in the cables. Light from sun is made up of electric field and magnetic field and its called electromagnetic wave so you are able to knock out electrons or proton from material on which sunlight is shine on material surface also called photo electric effect by Albert Einstein. The surface is the solar panels in this case. If it werent for Einstein we still would not be able to understand or have “green energy” called solar panels. You use the electrons, protons generated which was once part of solar panel


Movement Depends upon cable material subatomic structure and what is held tightly electrons or protons. If protons are held tight and electrons are lose then electrons move. If electrons are held tight and protons are lose then they move.
 
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K8MHZ said:
Is there a number that defines how many protons moving passed a given point will produce a current of one ampere?
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No, because current is due to the flow of charges in general. Both electrons and protons can produce a current when flowing past a point, as would numerous other charged elementary particles. We are just a lot more familiar with electrons being the charge carriers, because they are the particles that are free to flow in metals. Positive charges would add to the current value like protons, and electrons would subtract. In the plasma form of hydrogen, both would be flowing simultaneously. You'd count the proton flow rate as current A, the electron flow rate as current B, and the net current at that point would be A minus B, assuming both A and B are measured in the same direction.

If you had an example with one type of particles carrying the current, of the elementary charge each, then 6.2415*10^18 charges per second is one ampere.

hhsting said:
Ha! Buddy electrical field moves both protons and electrons Not just electrons. There are circuits where only protons move. Solar panels electrical field from light if strong enough can knockout protons not just electron.
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You would need a nuclear reaction to knock individual protons out of place on a solar panel. Plus, you'd end up with the silicon, boron, and phosphorous changing their elemental identity if their protons escaped.
K8MHZ said:
Charles Augustin de Coulomb

He even counted them. 6.24 x 10*18 (10 to the 18th power) electrons passing one point per second is one ampere.
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That was Millikan, who "counted" the electrons in a negative one Coulomb of charge. Coulomb is known for experimentally determining the mathematics behind the electrostatic force, long before we knew about the electron or that charge was a discrete quantity.

hhsting said:
If electrons are held tight and protons are lose then they move.
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Do you know of any example where that is the case?

It can move both protons and electrons as long as both are equally capable of moving due to the electric field. But due to other factors coming in to play (e.g. strong nuclear force, the greater mass of protons, the crystal structure of solids), it is a lot easier for an electric field to cause this motion for electrons.
 
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Carultch said:
No, because current is due to the flow of charges in general. Both electrons and protons can produce a current when flowing past a point, as would numerous other charged elementary particles. We are just a lot more familiar with electrons being the charge carriers, because they are the particles that are free to flow in metals. Positive charges would add to the current value like protons, and electrons would subtract. In the plasma form of hydrogen, both would be flowing simultaneously. You'd count the proton flow rate as current A, the electron flow rate as current B, and the net current at that point would be A minus B, assuming both A and B are measured in the same direction.

If you had an example with one type of particles carrying the current, of the elementary charge each, then 6.2415*10^18 charges per second is one ampere.


You would need a nuclear reaction to knock individual protons out of place on a solar panel. Plus, you'd end up with the silicon, boron, and phosphorous changing their elemental identity if their protons escaped.

That was Millikan, who "counted" the electrons in a negative one Coulomb of charge. Coulomb is known for experimentally determining the mathematics behind the electrostatic force, long before we knew about the electron or that charge was a discrete quantity.


Do you know of any example where that is the case?

It can move both protons and electrons as long as both are equally capable of moving due to the electric field. But due to other factors coming in to play (e.g. strong nuclear force, the greater mass of protons, the crystal structure of solids), it is a lot easier for an electric field to cause this motion for electrons.
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Post #29 or any medium in which electric field is so strong enough to move protons.

Magnetic field if strong enough can move iron atoms itself both electrons, protons, nuclei of atom
 
hhsting said:
Who told electric current is just electrons? Electric current is movement of charged particles and their are two: protons and electrons. So then protons can also be involved or are moved.
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In copper and aluminum conductors the charges that move are electrons.

The movement of any charge constitutes an electric current. But unless you are talking a particle accelerator or something like a Van der Graaf generator, you are talking about electron current.

Jon
 
winnie said:
Good point. The charge carriers in batteries are often positive ions.

Electrons move through the external circuit, but ions are moving through the electrolyte, giving up electrons at one electrode and picking them up at the other electrode.
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Exactamundo. (y)
 
winnie said:
Good point. The charge carriers in batteries are often positive ions.

Electrons move through the external circuit, but ions are moving through the electrolyte, giving up electrons at one electrode and picking them up at the other electrode.

Jon
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Positive ions are protons? At end do they change to gold or change elements? Protons you are saying would change element. How does battery work? Do they exchange electrons or protons too?
 
hhsting said:
Positive ions are protons? At end do they change to gold or change elements? Protons you are saying would change element. How does battery work? Do they exchange electrons or protons too?
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A positive ion is any atom or molecule that has fewer electrons than protons. This would include a single proton (a Hydrogen atom missing its electron), but would also include something like a Sodium atom missing only one electron. (11 protons, 12 neutrons, 10 electrons all operating together is Na+)

If you are talking wet chemistry, then positive ions can move around in a solution, and will eventually combine with other charged particles to form a neutral atom or compound. A positive ion moving around in solution (as in a battery) does not move with nearly enough energy to be involved in a nuclear reaction. You are not going to turn Lead into Gold in a wet chemistry reaction.

A particle accelerator operating at high enough energies could transmute elements. Particle accelerators require charged particles, such as electrons or protons, and use strong electric and magnetic fields to accelerate these particles to very high speeds. Get a proton or an electron or anything else up to high enough energy levels and they can cause nuclear reactions. See a writeup on a Bismuth to Gold experiment: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/

A particle accelerator beam is made up of anything other then electrons is still an example of a flow of current.

-Jon
 
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