Question regarding where power goes

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hhsting said:
Positive ions are protons? At end do they change to gold or change elements? Protons you are saying would change element. How does battery work? Do they exchange electrons or protons too?
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So we are not electricians but alchemists?
 
hhsting said:
Positive ions are protons? At end do they change to gold or change elements? Protons you are saying would change element. How does battery work? Do they exchange electrons or protons too?
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I believe the Federal Reserve publishes a daily bulletin on the exchange rate between protons and electrons.
(as well as Francs and DeutscheMarks)
 
winnie said:
A positive ion is any atom or molecule that has fewer electrons than protons. This would include a single proton (a Hydrogen atom missing its electron), but would also include something like a Sodium atom missing only one electron. (11 protons, 12 neutrons, 10 electrons all operating together is Na+)

If you are talking wet chemistry, then positive ions can move around in a solution, and will eventually combine with other charged particles to form a neutral atom or compound. A positive ion moving around in solution (as in a battery) does not move with nearly enough energy to be involved in a nuclear reaction. You are not going to turn Lead into Gold in a wet chemistry reaction.

A particle accelerator operating at high enough energies could transmute elements. Particle accelerators require charged particles, such as electrons or protons, and use strong electric and magnetic fields to accelerate these particles to very high speeds. Get a proton or an electron or anything else up to high enough energy levels and they can cause nuclear reactions. See a writeup on a Bismuth to Gold experiment: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/

A particle accelerator beam is made up of anything other then electrons is still an example of a flow of current.

-Jon
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Take AA, AAA, D cell batteries you put copper wire + side, - side and small light bulb and you are telling me inside the copper wire and light there can be protons moving?

I dont understand the exchange and exactly what goes on?
 
hhsting said:
Take AA, AAA, D cell batteries you put copper wire + side, - side and small light bulb and you are telling me inside the copper wire and light there can be protons moving?

I dont understand the exchange and exactly what goes on?
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No, the protons are moving within the electrolyte.
 
hhsting said:
Take AA, AAA, D cell batteries you put copper wire + side, - side and small light bulb and you are telling me inside the copper wire and light there can be protons moving?

I dont understand the exchange and exactly what goes on?
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No. Inside the copper wire and the light you only have electrons moving. Protons are present but they are essentially stationary.

Where you certainly have ions moving is in the electrolyte of the battery.

In a battery you have two reactions going on, one at the positive electrode and one at the negative electrode. One reaction releases electrons into the external circuit, the other reaction absorbs electrons from the external circuit. Between the two electrodes you have an electrolyte, and ions must flow through this electrolyte to complete the circuit.

In standard alkaline batteries the ions are OH-, but in Lithium ion batteries the ions are Li+.

Since an ion includes protons, even if the ion moving is negatively charged, there are still protons moving.

-Jon
 
I remember carbon cells had a + center electrode and the case was -.

Modern cells have a - center electrode and the case is +.

I believe that has to do with different electrolyte chemistry.
 
hhsting said:
Ha! Buddy electrical field moves both protons and electrons Not just electrons. There are circuits where only protons move. Solar panels electrical field from light if strong enough can knockout protons not just electron.
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Not protons but holes. Protons are locked into the nuclei of atoms, with the exception of hydrogen. The only movement of free protons (H+ ions) is in aqueous acid solutions. Protons do not move in semiconductors; positive and negative charge carriers in semiconductors are electrons and holes.
 
hhsting said:
If you have electrical field in medium it can move both protons and electrons.

Battery, generators, utility thru power plants generators produce electrical field in the cables. Light from sun is made up of electric field and magnetic field and its called electromagnetic wave so you are able to knock out electrons or proton from material on which sunlight is shine on material surface also called photo electric effect by Albert Einstein. The surface is the solar panels in this case. If it werent for Einstein we still would not be able to understand or have “green energy” called solar panels. You use the electrons, protons generated which was once part of solar panel


Movement Depends upon cable material subatomic structure and what is held tightly electrons or protons. If protons are held tight and electrons are lose then electrons move. If electrons are held tight and protons are lose then they move.
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No. The positive charge carriers in semiconductors, e.g. photovoltaic modules, are holes, not protons. Electrons can be lightly held but protons cannot.
 
ggunn said:
No. The positive charge carriers in semiconductors, e.g. photovoltaic modules, are holes, not protons. Electrons can be lightly held but protons cannot.
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Let me ask you this. Can you have PV modules that react and provide electricity other than sunlight radiation? Such as x rays, gamma rays, UV rays all other types of radiation. I ask because then one can then generate power into night all sorts of radiation penetrate Earth night and day
 
hhsting said:
Let me ask you this. Can you have PV modules that react and provide electricity other than sunlight radiation? Such as x rays, gamma rays, UV rays all other types of radiation. I ask because then one can then generate power into night all sorts of radiation penetrate Earth night and day
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The energy flux density in the visible and UV range of light incident to the earth's surface when the sun is directly overhead is about 1000 Watts per square meter, and a really good commercially available PV module can convert between 20-25% of that light energy to electricity. The other radiation types you mention don't contain anywhere near that much energy at the earth's surface, which is a very good thing for all life on the planet.
 
hhsting said:
Let me ask you this. Can you have PV modules that react and provide electricity other than sunlight radiation? Such as x rays, gamma rays, UV rays all other types of radiation. I ask because then one can then generate power into night all sorts of radiation penetrate Earth night and day
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If you invent a material that can be excited by other radiating energy source different than the photons that currently excite the solar panel to make electrical current then it might be feasible. Maybe you should get right on this and let us know, sounds like it would be the ultimate renewable energy source that is not limited by factors currently limiting the renewable field today (night time, no wind or too much wind, no water sources etc.).
 
ggunn said:
The energy flux density in the visible and UV range of light incident to the earth's surface when the sun is directly overhead is about 1000 Watts per square meter, and a really good commercially available PV module can convert between 20-25% of that light energy to electricity. The other radiation types you mention don't contain anywhere near that much energy at the earth's surface, which is a very good thing for all life on the planet.
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You are only looking at one face or one part of the coin. Why not look at both sides. Here what I mean:

1. Sure during daytime use current PV but What percentage of the sun light radiation is available at night? 0%. Then what percentage of radiation is most available at night? Call that radiation X. Why not have hybrid PV module
One that generate energy from sun light and from radiation X?
 
Fred B said:
If you invent a material that can be excited by other radiating energy source different than the photons that currently excite the solar panel to make electrical current then it might be feasible. Maybe you should get right on this and let us know, sounds like it would be the ultimate renewable energy source that is not limited by factors currently limiting the renewable field today (night time, no wind or too much wind, no water sources etc.).
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You cannot get more energy from a panel of any type than what is incident on it from another source. It's thermodynamics.
 
ggunn said:
You cannot get more energy from a panel of any type than what is incident on it from another source. It's thermodynamics.
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Just because our eyes don’t see any source of other radiation at night does Not mean their is no radiation coming at night on Earth
 
ggunn said:
Not protons but holes. Protons are locked into the nuclei of atoms, with the exception of hydrogen. The only movement of free protons (H+ ions) is in aqueous acid solutions. Protons do not move in semiconductors; positive and negative charge carriers in semiconductors are electrons and holes.
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Very true. But interestingly the Hall Effect for P-type semiconductors is the same as the Hall Effect for positive charges.

If you have a current of charges moving in a magnetic field, they get pushed to the side. When you have electrons move from right to left or protons moving from left to right you end up with the same 'conventional current' (from left to right). But if you add a magnetic field you will get a 'Hall Voltage' of opposite signs for electrons or protons.

In a P-type semiconductor the charge carrier is a 'hole', which is an absence of an electron. For a hole to move to the right what really is happening is an electron jumping to the left. But the 'Hall Voltage' developed in a P-type semiconductor is the sort you get for a proton.

-Jon
 
hhsting said:
You are only looking at one face or one part of the coin. Why not look at both sides. Here what I mean:

1. Sure during daytime use current PV but What percentage of the sun light radiation is available at night? 0%. Then what percentage of radiation is most available at night? Call that radiation X. Why not have hybrid PV module
One that generate energy from sun light and from radiation X?
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I don't know what to tell you other than what you are suggesting is not feasible. Although I have been out of school for quite a while I have a degree in this stuff.
 
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