rail orientation on steep roof

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Isn't it hard to see though from ground?
Not really, especially if the roof is steep. Some customers do care about stuff like that.
Upside down uni strut?
If you mean flat side down, channel side up, then yes
Portrait and landscape are terms used to describe aspect ratios of 2 sides, as in paintings - not directions.
Makes little sense for rails.
Makes sense for rectangles , e.g panels.
Portrait means clamps on the long sides of the modules and landscape means clamps on the short sides. It seems simple enough to me.
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Portrait means clamps on the long sides of the modules and landscape means clamps on the short sides. It seems simple enough to me.
Portrait means taller than wide, like a picture of a person. Landscape means wider than tall, like a picture of land scenery.

For rail orientation, I recommend calling it "rafter-orientation" and "purlin orientation". Usually if rafters are your substructure, you'll have your rails in purlin orientation, and vice-versa. You want your attachments to land on structural members, so to get the most flexibility, rails run perpendicular to the structural members you're given.

Modules themselves, and clamped in the "green zones" the manufacturer specifies. Generally, this means clamping on the long frame at 20% and 80% of the length.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Portrait means taller than wide, like a picture of a person. Landscape means wider than tall, like a picture of land scenery.

For rail orientation, I recommend calling it "rafter-orientation" and "purlin orientation". Usually if rafters are your substructure, you'll have your rails in purlin orientation, and vice-versa. You want your attachments to land on structural members, so to get the most flexibility, rails run perpendicular to the structural members you're given.

Modules themselves, and clamped in the "green zones" the manufacturer specifies. Generally, this means clamping on the long frame at 20% and 80% of the length.
Many (most?) module manufactures provide acceptable clamping zones on both the long sides and short sides of the frames, don't they?
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Many (most?) module manufactures provide acceptable clamping zones on both the long sides and short sides of the frames, don't they?
They do. The theoretical points that maximize strength are at a span of L/(1 + sqrt(2)/2), about L/1.7, where L is the module length. Compare this to what the manual specifies, and see how consistent it is.
 
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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The theoretical points that maximize strength are at a span of L/(1 + sqrt(2)/2), about L/1.7, where L is the module length.
I think what you are saying is that if you have a uniformly loaded beam supported at two points, the two support points that minimize the maximum bending moment within the beam are the points you describe. Is that correct? Or are you also considering the possibility that the beam is non-uniformly loaded, for any pattern not exceeding some uniform load?

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
On a groundmount the rails run vertical.
The panel clamps are on the long side of the panels.

So are those panels portrait?
From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
Portrait vs landscape requires a notion of "up/down". From the perspective of the rails, it's not obvious what direction should be "up/down". Obviously you can make a choice (either parallel to the rails or perpendicular to the rails) and call that your standard. But why overload the terminology, why not use a different set of terms to refer to the rail frame of reference, e.g. long side clamping vs short side clamping?

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Portrait vs landscape requires a notion of "up/down". From the perspective of the rails, it's not obvious what direction should be "up/down". Obviously you can make a choice (either parallel to the rails or perpendicular to the rails) and call that your standard. But why overload the terminology, why not use a different set of terms to refer to the rail frame of reference, e.g. long side clamping vs short side clamping?

Cheers, Wayne
From the perspective of the rails it doesn't make any difference. Call it whatever you like and so will the racking manufacturers. I know what they mean so it makes me no never mind.
 
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From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
My experience has always been that portrait and landscape refer to the perspective of a human standing upright and typically communicating to another human, who is also standing reasonably vertical. I don't see what the rails' perspective has to do with it, unless the supreme Court has expanded the citizens united decision and given rails personhood which sadly wouldn't surprise me.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I don't do solar (not yet, anyway), but it seems to me the orientation of the rails doesn't matter.

When I consider portrait vs landscape, I'm looking at the rectangle, not at what's holding it up.

All panels are tilted (except at the equator), not all rails are, so who cares which way they run?
 

Carultch

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I think what you are saying is that if you have a uniformly loaded beam supported at two points, the two support points that minimize the maximum bending moment within the beam are the points you describe. Is that correct? Or are you also considering the possibility that the beam is non-uniformly loaded, for any pattern not exceeding some uniform load?

Cheers, Wayne
Uniform loading is assumed. The cusps at the supports, have an equal and opposite bending moment as the peak at the center of the span. Here's the bending moment diagram:

1726682316316.png
 
From the perspective of the rails it doesn't make any difference. Call it whatever you like and so will the racking manufacturers. I know what they mean so it makes me no never mind.
So, to side with your position for a moment, if you are buying enphase Q cables, they have three different versions with different lengths Betwix the connectors, and they call them portrait and landscape. I admit that made sense to me immediately as the micros are mounted on the rail so its the relationship between the rails and the panels that matters not the absolute position of the panels. But I still say unless there is some specific context or use, the words should be used like you're looking at a picture or printing a document.
 
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