rail orientation on steep roof

Isn't it hard to see though from ground?
Not really, especially if the roof is steep. Some customers do care about stuff like that.
Upside down uni strut?
If you mean flat side down, channel side up, then yes
Portrait and landscape are terms used to describe aspect ratios of 2 sides, as in paintings - not directions.
Makes little sense for rails.
Makes sense for rectangles , e.g panels.
Portrait means clamps on the long sides of the modules and landscape means clamps on the short sides. It seems simple enough to me.
 
Portrait means clamps on the long sides of the modules and landscape means clamps on the short sides. It seems simple enough to me.
Portrait means taller than wide, like a picture of a person. Landscape means wider than tall, like a picture of land scenery.

For rail orientation, I recommend calling it "rafter-orientation" and "purlin orientation". Usually if rafters are your substructure, you'll have your rails in purlin orientation, and vice-versa. You want your attachments to land on structural members, so to get the most flexibility, rails run perpendicular to the structural members you're given.

Modules themselves, and clamped in the "green zones" the manufacturer specifies. Generally, this means clamping on the long frame at 20% and 80% of the length.
 
Portrait means taller than wide, like a picture of a person. Landscape means wider than tall, like a picture of land scenery.

For rail orientation, I recommend calling it "rafter-orientation" and "purlin orientation". Usually if rafters are your substructure, you'll have your rails in purlin orientation, and vice-versa. You want your attachments to land on structural members, so to get the most flexibility, rails run perpendicular to the structural members you're given.

Modules themselves, and clamped in the "green zones" the manufacturer specifies. Generally, this means clamping on the long frame at 20% and 80% of the length.
Many (most?) module manufactures provide acceptable clamping zones on both the long sides and short sides of the frames, don't they?
 
Portrait means clamps on the long sides of the modules and landscape means clamps on the short sides. It seems simple enough to me.
On a groundmount the rails run vertical.
The panel clamps are on the long side of the panels.

So are those panels portrait?
 
Many (most?) module manufactures provide acceptable clamping zones on both the long sides and short sides of the frames, don't they?
They do. The theoretical points that maximize strength are at a span of L/(1 + sqrt(2)/2), about L/1.7, where L is the module length. Compare this to what the manual specifies, and see how consistent it is.
 
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The theoretical points that maximize strength are at a span of L/(1 + sqrt(2)/2), about L/1.7, where L is the module length.
I think what you are saying is that if you have a uniformly loaded beam supported at two points, the two support points that minimize the maximum bending moment within the beam are the points you describe. Is that correct? Or are you also considering the possibility that the beam is non-uniformly loaded, for any pattern not exceeding some uniform load?

Cheers, Wayne
 
On a groundmount the rails run vertical.
The panel clamps are on the long side of the panels.

So are those panels portrait?
From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
 
From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
Portrait vs landscape requires a notion of "up/down". From the perspective of the rails, it's not obvious what direction should be "up/down". Obviously you can make a choice (either parallel to the rails or perpendicular to the rails) and call that your standard. But why overload the terminology, why not use a different set of terms to refer to the rail frame of reference, e.g. long side clamping vs short side clamping?

Cheers, Wayne
 
Portrait vs landscape requires a notion of "up/down". From the perspective of the rails, it's not obvious what direction should be "up/down". Obviously you can make a choice (either parallel to the rails or perpendicular to the rails) and call that your standard. But why overload the terminology, why not use a different set of terms to refer to the rail frame of reference, e.g. long side clamping vs short side clamping?

Cheers, Wayne
From the perspective of the rails it doesn't make any difference. Call it whatever you like and so will the racking manufacturers. I know what they mean so it makes me no never mind.
 
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From the perspective of the rails, yes. From the perspective of an observer, no. As I said, it depends on your frame of reference.
My experience has always been that portrait and landscape refer to the perspective of a human standing upright and typically communicating to another human, who is also standing reasonably vertical. I don't see what the rails' perspective has to do with it, unless the supreme Court has expanded the citizens united decision and given rails personhood which sadly wouldn't surprise me.
 
I don't do solar (not yet, anyway), but it seems to me the orientation of the rails doesn't matter.

When I consider portrait vs landscape, I'm looking at the rectangle, not at what's holding it up.

All panels are tilted (except at the equator), not all rails are, so who cares which way they run?
 
I think what you are saying is that if you have a uniformly loaded beam supported at two points, the two support points that minimize the maximum bending moment within the beam are the points you describe. Is that correct? Or are you also considering the possibility that the beam is non-uniformly loaded, for any pattern not exceeding some uniform load?

Cheers, Wayne
Uniform loading is assumed. The cusps at the supports, have an equal and opposite bending moment as the peak at the center of the span. Here's the bending moment diagram:

1726682316316.png
 
From the perspective of the rails it doesn't make any difference. Call it whatever you like and so will the racking manufacturers. I know what they mean so it makes me no never mind.
So, to side with your position for a moment, if you are buying enphase Q cables, they have three different versions with different lengths Betwix the connectors, and they call them portrait and landscape. I admit that made sense to me immediately as the micros are mounted on the rail so its the relationship between the rails and the panels that matters not the absolute position of the panels. But I still say unless there is some specific context or use, the words should be used like you're looking at a picture or printing a document.
 
So, to side with your position for a moment, if you are buying enphase Q cables, they have three different versions with different lengths Betwix the connectors, and they call them portrait and landscape. I admit that made sense to me immediately as the micros are mounted on the rail so its the relationship between the rails and the panels that matters not the absolute position of the panels. But I still say unless there is some specific context or use, the words should be used like you're looking at a picture or printing a document.
I don't have a "position"; I don't care one way or the other. I am just saying that I am not confused by their terminology. Clamps on the module frame long sides is portrait and clamps on the short sides is landscape, irrespective of the direction of the rails. They could be oriented at a 45 degree angle on the roof (I have done that) and it wouldn't make any difference.

When you are using a racking manufacturer's on line tool to generate a layout and BOM, there is no up or down; the only thing that matters is the orientation of the modules to the rails. To change from portrait to landscape, it could rotate either the modules or the rails; it makes no difference which.

Good luck getting a racking company to change their lexicon.
 
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Uniform loading is assumed.
OK, so if your beam member is only subjected to uniform loads, I get that the support points should be (sqrt(2)-1)/2 of the way in from each end, which agrees with your statement that the distance between supports is 1/1.71 of the beam length.

But if you expand the allowable loading cases to any distributed loading up to some maximum limit over any subset of the beam, then to minimize the maximum moment the support points should be 1/4 of the way in. That way the moment at the support from just loading the cantilever (which moment will be independent of the loading on the rest of the beam) equals in magnitude the moment at the beam midpoint from just loading the central span (with no load on the cantilevers).

Or switching gears slightly, if the allowable loading cases consist of a single point load anywhere along the beam, then the optimal support location is 1/6 of the way in from the end. That way the maximum moment from the point load being at the end of the beam will be equal in magnitude to the maximum moment from the point load being at the midpoint of the beam.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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