Range/Microwave Circuit

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hillbilly

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I've got a problem on a new house, and I need a opinion.

The house has a full kitchen upstairs and during construction, it was decided to finish the full basement and add another full kitchen downstairs.
This will be a single family dwelling, and the extra kitchen will be used for "guests and parties".

Anyway, during rough in I questioned the owner about installing a built in microwave in the basement kitchen and was told that there wouldn't be one, that the microwave, if used, would be placed on the kitchen counter.

I returned to the job after the cabinets were installed and I find that a built in (1500w) microwave will be installed over the range.

This decision was made at the spur of the moment without me being informed, so now, I've got to power the thing.

I'm not mad, or upset, and any extra expense is not a problem.
This is a good customer and I understand that sometimes things get added without everyone being informed.
There are no prints or plans, only my electrical schematic.

So....all of the walls and ceiling are covered with "tongue and groove" pine boards and it is not possible to get a new homerun to the location without major work.

I have a 6/3 NM branch circuit for the range that travels down directly behind the cabinets and range (in the wall).

I'm thinking about installing a small (4 space) panel inside the cabinet directly above the microwave and feeding it with the 6/3 NM.
From there, I can supply the range with a 40A circuit and the microwave with a 20A circuit.
Basically I'm converting the range circuit into a feeder to supply both appliances.
The 6/3NM feeder is protected by a 60A Breaker in the Main panel.

My concern is 110.26 (working space) around the sub-panel in the cabinet.
110.26(A) states that the required space shall be maintained about equipment likely to require examination, etc, while energized .
Since there is a 60A disconnect ahead of the sub-panel, it will be possible to disconnect the feeder before doing any work on the sub-panel.

Other than that, I can't see any other reason that I can't do what I plan, although something in the back of my mind tells me no.

I'd like to get any code numbers that would prohibit my plan.

This is the only solution that's available to me, other than using one of my small appliance circuits for the microwave, and I only have two, so I know that's out of the picture.

I'm not asking how to do it, only if what I plan to do is prohibited by the code.

Any response is appreciated.

steve
 
Steve-

I've seen this one done and you'll have to check with the AHJ as to its validity in your area: tap the 6-3 with 12-2 run it to one of those buss receptacles that have the ability to take a fuse and install a minibreaker for the micro...
 
I'm wondering if 210.19(A)(4) would apply here and if you could use a #12 tap wire from a junction box located in this cabinet that serves both the range and the microwave. No panelboard. You could fuse the 6/3 at 60 amps (allowed by 310.16) and the microwave would not overdraw the #12 wire tap conductors and with both appliances on at the same time I don't see where anything would not be properly protected. This is all my opinion and I would defer to the more knowledgeable people in this forum, though. :)
 
I agree there is no reason that this sub panel would reqiure service while energized. I think it would be hard to argue that " Sufficient access and working space " is not met as this will have been installed after the fact. But " ready and safe operation.. " that could be a bit stickier
Also the the rquirements of 240.24 could be met by condition (4) perhaps
 
If this over-the-range microwave is on an exterior wall, and this wall is substantially below grade, I'd examine the possibility of feeding it with a buried conduit outside from the panel to the microwave location. Stub through the wall to the microwave receptacle.

You might run into the 6',7" max height restriction if you put a panel above the microwave.
 
hillbilly said:
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My concern is 110.26 (working space) around the sub-panel in the cabinet.
110.26(A) states that the required space shall be maintained about equipment likely to require examination, etc, while energized .
Since there is a 60A disconnect ahead of the sub-panel, it will be possible to disconnect the feeder before doing any work on the sub-panel.



Any response is appreciated.

steve
Click to expand...

If that was allowed, you would not be required to any working space about any disconect. You could just go shut it off at the panel. Hard to check breakers if they are not energized. Your thinking of it not being accepted is spot on.
 
The fact that there is a disconnect on the line side of something does not change the likelyhood that the item on the load side of the disconnect will be worked on while energized.
 
If the micro stops working it is very likely you would be in that panel live.Simply is not ok in my book.Is there perhaps a garbage disposal and dishwasher that perhaps could be compined to free a circuit ? Like it or not you should tell them to start removing boards.It will actually teach them a costly lesson.Breaking codes to make this go away migh come back on you if they sell this house.
 
The irony of this whole situation is that if the microwave was on the counter than the SABC is perfectly okay to plug into. Do a built in above the range and you are in violation.

This is the main reason I always pull a separate circuit to the range hood.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The fact that there is a disconnect on the line side of something does not change the likelyhood that the item on the load side of the disconnect will be worked on while energized.
Click to expand...

In this case I see no reason that this sub panel would need to be worked while energized.
 
What about having the carpenters build a microwave shelf above the range and install a countertop micro with a trim kit? And feed it off the SABC... or is that wrong?
 
IMO every panel at some point will be worked on energized. Put the panel where is meets the requirements of article 110 or find another way to do this.
 
infinity said:
IMO every panel at some point will be worked on energized. Put the panel where is meets the requirements of article 110 or find another way to do this.
Click to expand...

"Will be" and " likely to require " are two different things IMO
 
M. D. said:
"Will be" and " likely to require " are two different things IMO
Click to expand...

So with thinking like that a 40 circuit sub panel does not need working clearance as its not likely to ever have a problem.Sorry but i find even a simple pullout disconnect to likely need checked for voltage someday or atleast after first installed
 
M. D. said:
"Will be" and " likely to require " are two different things IMO
Click to expand...



OK so I'll rewrite the sentence, IMO every panel at some point is likely to require being worked on energized. I'd like to know how you would test a CB if the panel is dead?
 
infinity said:
OK so I'll rewrite the sentence, IMO every panel at some point is likely to require being worked on energized. I'd like to know how you would test a CB if the panel is dead?
Click to expand...

You're kidding right???
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
So with thinking like that a 40 circuit sub panel does not need working clearance as its not likely to ever have a problem.Sorry but i find even a simple pullout disconnect to likely need checked for voltage someday or atleast after first installed
Click to expand...

No , I said in this case , the one we are talking about. I just don't think it is likely to require me to work it live
 
splinetto said:
What about having the carpenters build a microwave shelf above the range and install a countertop micro with a trim kit? And feed it off the SABC... or is that wrong?
Click to expand...

Article 210.52(B)--- I believe that is a NO NO
 
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