Range Tripping GFCI (210.8, 555.53)

M

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I assume this has been discussed already in this forum but I wasn't able to find a recent thread.

NEC 2023 210.8(A)(6) requires all 125-250V single phase receptacles in a kitchen to be GFCI protected. We recently rewired a kitchen including a 50A GFCI circuit to a Miele induction range. They installed the range today and it's tripping the circuit breaker. I called Miele support and was informed that the range isn't compatible with a GFCI breaker. I also talked with an appliance installer and they told me that they have the same issue with ALL the ranges they install. Their "solution" is that the GFCI breaker gets removed after the final inspection.

Are you all finding the same incompatibility with ALL ranges? There surely must be some ranges that are compatible right? How is everyone else dealing with this problem?

We ran into this issue several years ago on a boat house (555.53) and as far as I know someone swapped it out to a standard breaker because they couldn't use their range otherwise.

Rob - Seattle
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
With a lot of standard electric ranges, it is the absorbed moisture in the elements from the long sea voyage to get here. That is typically solved by the temporary use of a standard breaker and running all of the elements on high for 20-30 minutes, then installing the code required GFCI protection.
Not sure what the issue is with the induction ones...probably designs and product standards that don't match up with the new NEC rules.
 
M

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
don_resqcapt19 said:
With a lot of standard electric ranges, it is the absorbed moisture in the elements from the long sea voyage to get here. That is typically solved by the temporary use of a standard breaker and running all of the elements on high for 20-30 minutes, then installing the code required GFCI protection.
Not sure what the issue is with the induction ones...probably designs and product standards that don't match up with the new NEC rules.
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That's Crazy! I've never heard that trick. I assume you have experience doing this?

The induction is only for the cooktop, so maybe the oven elements have moisture as you mention.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
marmathsen said:
That's Crazy! I've never heard that trick. I assume you have experience doing this?

The induction is only for the cooktop, so maybe the oven elements have moisture as you mention.
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I have not done it. That came from a NEMA rep at an IAEI section meeting when he talked about a apartment complex where they had to do that for every stove in the complex.
 
G

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
You need to remove the little strap from the neutral to the frame. I had a appliance installer say they did this and I simply unplugged one the range and measured from the ground pin to the neutral pin with my fluke and had continuity checked another one same thing. 28 units they had to redo.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
gene6 said:
You need to remove the little strap from the neutral to the frame. I had a appliance installer say they did this and I simply unplugged one the range and measured from the ground pin to the neutral pin with my fluke and had continuity checked another one same thing. 28 units they had to redo.
Click to expand...
All Miele appliances come with factory installed cords. They never have ground to neutral connections in the appliance.
 
M

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
gene6 said:
You need to remove the little strap from the neutral to the frame. I had a appliance installer say they did this and I simply unplugged one the range and measured from the ground pin to the neutral pin with my fluke and had continuity checked another one same thing. 28 units they had to redo.
Click to expand...
You can guarantee those installers never made that mistake again. Oops
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
don_resqcapt19 said:
I have not done it. That came from a NEMA rep at an IAEI section meeting when he talked about a apartment complex where they had to do that for every stove in the complex.
Click to expand...
Is also a trick I learned long before the ranges and GFCI protection issues had come up. Particularly outdoor cords or utilization items that were tripping GFCI protection, sometimes you just need to plug into non GFCI protected supply for a little while and let any moisture that got in where it doesn't belong "burn itself out"

I can see there being appliances though that were never designed and tested to have leakage levels below GFCI thresholds though and it will be an issue when newer codes apply.

Here we just adopted 2023 on Aug 1 and upgraded from 2017. They made the decision to amend 210.8 (A) for dwelling applications to read the same way it did in 2017, so none those 240 volt receptacles require GFCI unless they happened to in 2017, though it was primarily non dwellings that had such requirements in certain locations.
 
tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
If any circuit in my house needs to dump more than 30ma down the equipment ground its driving on a flat tire.
So I am becoming a fan of GFPE breakers or Class B GFCI's if it trips this its defective:
1723246680214.png
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
tortuga said:
If any circuit in my house needs to dump more than 30ma down the equipment ground its driving on a flat tire.
So I am becoming a fan of GFPE breakers or Class B GFCI's if it trips this its defective:
Click to expand...
In terms of code compliance, if it calls for a GFCI and you install GFPE you may as well save the money and use a standard breaker.
 
tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
George Stolz said:
In terms of code compliance, if it calls for a GFCI and you install GFPE you may as well save the money and use a standard breaker.
Click to expand...
A regular breaker will let 50 amps run on the equipment ground continuously, I'd personalty prefer a lower number.
I have seen a oven element weld itself to the frame of a range and kept working.
Here in Oregon GFCI is not a code requirement on a range but
If I can afford a $9300 range I can afford to spend 1% more and get a breaker to give it some decent protection that wont nuisance trip.
Come around more often George and cheers
😁
m.png
 
N

norcal

Senior Member
Could you temporarily disconnect the GFCI neutral pigtail & connect the load neutral to the neutral bar, run it as a non functioning GFCI until the burn in time is completed, then return it to it's code compliant state? As long as the neutral pigtail is kept isolated from everything it should then function only as a circuit breaker.
 
electrofelon

electrofelon

Senior Member
Location
Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
marmathsen said:
I assume this has been discussed already in this forum but I wasn't able to find a recent thread.

NEC 2023 210.8(A)(6) requires all 125-250V single phase receptacles in a kitchen to be GFCI protected. We recently rewired a kitchen including a 50A GFCI circuit to a Miele induction range. They installed the range today and it's tripping the circuit breaker. I called Miele support and was informed that the range isn't compatible with a GFCI breaker. I also talked with an appliance installer and they told me that they have the same issue with ALL the ranges they install. Their "solution" is that the GFCI breaker gets removed after the final inspection.

Are you all finding the same incompatibility with ALL ranges? There surely must be some ranges that are compatible right? How is everyone else dealing with this problem?

We ran into this issue several years ago on a boat house (555.53) and as far as I know someone swapped it out to a standard breaker because they couldn't use their range otherwise.

Rob - Seattle
Click to expand...
Rob, my understanding is the range GFCI is not required in Washington or Seattle. Patrick Rutherford from SDCI just told me that on an inspection a month or so ago. I don't quite understand this as it hasn't been modified out of the WAC and there is no exception in the Seattle electrical code replacement pages - but that's what he said.
 
G

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
fishin' electrician said:
NEC needs to stop playing leapfrog with the manufacturers, it's really getting ridiculous. Electricity use in the US is safe already.
Click to expand...
I think your pointing the finger at the wrong party there, you should be looking at the clown who sold you a 10k fridge that can't run on a GFCI.
I have been visiting family with young kids this weekend, a 1, 3 and 5 year old, in this house the fridge is right next to the dishwasher so the young kids can touch the frame of the fridge and the frame of the dishwasher at the same time. They have alphabet and number magnets they move between the two.

When I worked commercial one of the companies did fast food & institutional kitchen builds in the early to mid 2000's and at some point early on every one had GFCI for all the kitchen equipment, including fridges, not sure if it was a code thing or what, but tons of GFCI in commercial kitchen for a long time.
So why then can whoever makes fridges and freezers for a commercial kitchen that have worked fine on a GFCI for over 20 years not make a ten thousand dollar fridge to work on a GFCI where a young child can sit there and touch it and another grounded appliance?
 
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