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Range Tripping GFCI (210.8, 555.53)

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I think your pointing the finger at the wrong party there, you should be looking at the clown who sold you a 10k fridge that can't run on a GFCI.
I have been visiting family with young kids this weekend, a 1, 3 and 5 year old, in this house the fridge is right next to the dishwasher so the young kids can touch the frame of the fridge and the frame of the dishwasher at the same time. They have alphabet and number magnets they move between the two.

When I worked commercial one of the companies did fast food & institutional kitchen builds in the early to mid 2000's and at some point early on every one had GFCI for all the kitchen equipment, including fridges, not sure if it was a code thing or what, but tons of GFCI in commercial kitchen for a long time.
So why then can whoever makes fridges and freezers for a commercial kitchen that have worked fine on a GFCI for over 20 years not make a ten thousand dollar fridge to work on a GFCI where a young child can sit there and touch it and another grounded appliance?
It doesn't say it will not work on a GFCI protected circuit. It says that nuisance tripping may occur. It doesn't say the appliance will cause the tripping. GFCI's do trip from other events in the home including utility power issues.

The note is really just to cover the appliance manufacture from claims of spoiled food due to breaker tripping.
 

gene6

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electrician
It doesn't say it will not work on a GFCI protected circuit. It says that nuisance tripping may occur. It doesn't say the appliance will cause the tripping. GFCI's do trip from other events in the home including utility power issues.

The note is really just to cover the appliance manufacture from claims of spoiled food due to breaker tripping.
I was responding to the comment that implied the NEC was somehow requiring things that were impossible to solve, that they had overstepped, 'leap fogging' the poor manufacturers, that the GFCI requirement should be removed.
Why should my 1 year old granddaughter have less GFCI protection than the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D's?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I was responding to the comment that implied the NEC was somehow requiring things that were impossible to solve, that they had overstepped, 'leap fogging' the poor manufacturers, that the GFCI requirement should be removed.
Why should my 1 year old granddaughter have less GFCI protection than the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D's?
Because GFCI's do nuisance trip, especially on new equipment with electronic motor controls. I want GFCI protection for places like outdoor receptacles where items are plugged and unplugged, different tools are powered up, and extension cords are used. I don't want them on my fridge or anything else that stays in place. I would happily accept 30mA ground fault protection. It would trip before any one year old kid touched it and it wouldn't trip unnecessarily during a weekend trip. What's going to happen is people are going to start ripping out GFCIs and putting in non-ground fault plugs or breakers and the end result is less safety for the grand-kids overall.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Why should my 1 year old granddaughter have less GFCI protection than the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D's?

That’s a silly argument. Since the refrigerator and dishwasher in a modern home are solidly grounded via EGCs, the GFCI provides no tangible additional protection under normal circumstances.

We all accept some level of risk in everything we do. At some point, risk aversion reaches irrational levels. Your example is one of those.

It would make much more sense to incorporate logic into the appliance to assure the EGC connection than to use external GFCI.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Same in a commercial kitchen, so what about that commercial kitchen GFCI requirement? get rid of that too?
Dwelling kitchen appliance are seldom moved. Commercial kitchen equipment is frequently moved, sometimes daily for cleaning. Much better chance of the cord/EGC getting damaged.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Dwelling kitchen appliance are seldom moved. Commercial kitchen equipment is frequently moved, sometimes daily for cleaning. Much better chance of the cord/EGC getting damaged.
Also greater opportunities for fingers to accidentally touch plug blades, and with wet fingers.
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
I am glad we are having these conversations ... through and until September 1, 2026, this forum will continue to get "Posts" on tripping of GFCI's and maybe now they will be looked at differently.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
I don't see the issue is overtly NEC; it is an issue between UL and the MFG. Things such as pool motors, HVAC, refrigeration, and now ranges that are adversely effecting GFCI with nuisance tripping. I know with HVAC, MFG is not making modification until UL makes a standard. UL acknowledge it is an issue but haven't come out with a standard. NEC made a safety requirement that can not be adhered to without nuisance tripping and in the case of HVAC they issued a TIA, exempting the GFCI requirement for a period, but if a municipality or state don't adopt the TIA with the code you will have issues, and EC or others that do installations and keep customer happy are forced to be non compliant with code as written. Not sure that would work with pool pump motors as to do so would create a larger safety issue.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
It would make much more sense to incorporate logic into the appliance to assure the EGC connection than to use external GFCI.
I don't see the issue is overtly NEC; it is an issue between UL and the MFG. Things such as pool motors, HVAC, refrigeration, and now ranges that are adversely effecting GFCI with nuisance tripping. I know with HVAC, MFG is not making modification until UL makes a standard. UL acknowledge it is an issue but haven't come out with a standard. NEC made a safety requirement that can not be adhered to without nuisance tripping and in the case of HVAC they issued a TIA, exempting the GFCI requirement for a period, but if a municipality or state don't adopt the TIA with the code you will have issues, and EC or others that do installations and keep customer happy are forced to be non compliant with code as written. Not sure that would work with pool pump motors as to do so would create a larger safety issue.
There's no need for any of that. Simply do what the rest of the world does and adopt 30mA protection. Equipment works, manufacturers still get to sell expensive breakers, and electrical installs are safer.
 

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Rob, my understanding is the range GFCI is not required in Washington or Seattle. Patrick Rutherford from SDCI just told me that on an inspection a month or so ago. I don't quite understand this as it hasn't been modified out of the WAC and there is no exception in the Seattle electrical code replacement pages - but that's what he said.
That seems reasonable. Hopefully they'll put it in writing somewhere soon. Perhaps in the next LNI Electrical Currents newsletter.

Rob G - Seattle
 

marmathsen

Senior Member
Location
Seattle, Washington ...ish
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If any circuit in my house needs to dump more than 30ma down the equipment ground its driving on a flat tire.
So I am becoming a fan of GFPE breakers or Class B GFCI's if it trips this its defective:
View attachment 2572878

This has been my attitude for years. I wish that it would catch on more. We would all be safer.

Because GFCI's do nuisance trip, especially on new equipment with electronic motor controls. I want GFCI protection for places like outdoor receptacles where items are plugged and unplugged, different tools are powered up, and extension cords are used. I don't want them on my fridge or anything else that stays in place. I would happily accept 30mA ground fault protection. It would trip before any one year old kid touched it and it wouldn't trip unnecessarily during a weekend trip. What's going to happen is people are going to start ripping out GFCIs and putting in non-ground fault plugs or breakers and the end result is less safety for the grand-kids overall.

There's no need for any of that. Simply do what the rest of the world does and adopt 30mA protection. Equipment works, manufacturers still get to sell expensive breakers, and electrical installs are safer.

I've always thought a general rule for the let-go threshold for AC is 1 mA per pound. So a child that's < 50 lbs is still conceivably at risk with a 5 mA GFCI. And a < 300 lb adult could similarly be at risk with a GFPE device.

Is this unsound logic?

I confirmed these numbers in this document from the NIH.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/...dren can tolerate a,current found in the home


Rob G - Seattle
 

fishin' electrician

Senior Member
Location
Connecticut
I think your pointing the finger at the wrong party there, you should be looking at the clown who sold you a 10k fridge that can't run on a GFCI.
I have been visiting family with young kids this weekend, a 1, 3 and 5 year old, in this house the fridge is right next to the dishwasher so the young kids can touch the frame of the fridge and the frame of the dishwasher at the same time. They have alphabet and number magnets they move between the two.

When I worked commercial one of the companies did fast food & institutional kitchen builds in the early to mid 2000's and at some point early on every one had GFCI for all the kitchen equipment, including fridges, not sure if it was a code thing or what, but tons of GFCI in commercial kitchen for a long time.
So why then can whoever makes fridges and freezers for a commercial kitchen that have worked fine on a GFCI for over 20 years not make a ten thousand dollar fridge to work on a GFCI where a young child can sit there and touch it and another grounded appliance?
What prevents you from installing GFCI protection on a circuit that doesn't require it?
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
There's no need for any of that. Simply do what the rest of the world does and adopt 30mA protection. Equipment works, manufacturers still get to sell expensive breakers, and electrical installs are safer.
Maybe review OSHA guidance, particular attention to the 60 cycle. https://www.voltstick.com/how-to-av/videos-and-blogs/osha

1723459629520.png
Dalziel Chart from testing on human subjects, healthy adults with no known cardiac issues:
1723460040340.png

So 30mA ok, rather than the typical 4-6mA?

IMO Get mfg. on board to fix issues not loosen criteria.

An EGC and use does little to help when there is simply "leakage" to the appliance shell that could lead to shock levels far less than a full faulted circuit, considering the smallest circuit normally used is 15A about 1000+ times the average let go threshold.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
There's no need for any of that. Simply do what the rest of the world does and adopt 30mA protection. Equipment works, manufacturers still get to sell expensive breakers, and electrical installs are safer.
That difference is based on what the device is trying to do. The 30mA trip is to prevent ventricular fibrillation. The 5mA is not to exceed the let-go threshold current. It would be interesting to see the effects of a sustained 20 mA current on the human body. A current that is high enough that many people could not let go of the energized part, but a current that a 30 mA device will let flow forever.

I also think that part of the 30 mA trip level is based on the higher voltages that are used in many other countries and that the normal leakage current at the higher voltages would exceed out 5 mA trip point.

However I see no need for any GFCI type protection for hardwired equipment with exception of increased hazard areas such as pools.
One of the problems with the new code rules is that the NEC is requiring protection for hardwired equipment and the product standards did not have any leakage current requirements because the product standard assumes that the required EGC will eliminate the hazard from hardwired equipment.
The reason that all of the original GFCI requirements were for cord and plug connected equipment, is because it is not uncommon to have the cord and plug connection lose the EGC.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
An EGC and use does little to help when there is simply "leakage" to the appliance shell that could lead to shock levels far less than a full faulted circuit, considering the smallest circuit normally used is 15A about 1000+ times the average let go threshold.

Since the EGC keeps everything at hand at (for all practical purposes) the same potential, “simple leakage to the shell” has no effect on personnel safety. You have to contact 2 objects that are at different potential in order to induce current flow through the body.

Your premise would require that a person essentially be in series with the appliance EGC, which is virtually impossible.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...

An EGC and use does little to help when there is simply "leakage" to the appliance shell that could lead to shock levels far less than a full faulted circuit, considering the smallest circuit normally used is 15A about 1000+ times the average let go threshold.
Unless the leakage current is high enough to cause a huge amount of voltage drop on the EGC, the EGC eliminates the shock hazard from leakage current. Without voltage drop, the EGC holds the voltage on the appliance parts to the same voltage that exists to ground at the location of the main bonding jumper.
If the voltage drop on the EGC is high enough to cause a shock hazard, the current flow is likely in the instantaneous trip range of the OCPD.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Just an observation:

An EGC provides protection against various single failures, e.g. a hot shorting against the frame.

A GFCI + EGC provides protection against various double failures, e.g. the frame becomes discontinuous, and the hot shorts to the part of the frame that isn't connected to the EGC.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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