Ranges neutral to ground connection

[pedro1200]

Isnt this a perfect example of the code contradicting itself?

The National Electrical Code (NEC) allows a neutral-to-ground connection for ranges
on existing installations using 3-wire circuits, which was originally permitted to save wire during World War II and was continued by the manufacturers. However, for new construction, the NEC requires a 4-wire circuit with a separate neutral and ground conductor for safety, as bonding the two can be dangerous in case of a fault.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is no contradiction....the code is not retroactive, and this simply permits the circuits that were installed prior to the 1996 electrical code to continue to be used to supply these appliances. This permission to use existing 3 wire circuit is why ranges and dryers are not shipped with cords and the cord terminations are designed to be used with either 3 or 4 wire circuits.

 

[pedro1200]

There is no contradiction....the code is not retroactive, and this simply permits the circuits that were installed prior to the 1996 electrical code to continue to be used to supply these appliances. This permission to use existing 3 wire circuit is why ranges and dryers are not shipped with cords and the cord terminations are designed to be used with either 3 or 4 wire circuits.

A dangerous installation is still a dangerous installation. I guess the electrons on those existing circuits don’t know the difference between old and new construction.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

A dangerous installation is still a dangerous installation. I guess the electrons on those existing circuits don’t know the difference between old and new construction.

It took a very long time to make the code change to require the four wire circuit, because they could not cite actual incidents where there were injuries from the 3 wire circuit.

 

[pedro1200]

It took a very long time to make the code change to require the four wire circuit, because they could not cite actual incidents where there were injuries from the 3 wire circuit.

So being that they changed probably means that cases were finally cited which proves my previous point. Just saying . Thanks for the info

 

[pipe_bender]

So being that they changed probably means that cases were finally cited which proves my previous point. Just saying . Thanks for the info

We had quite the hair pulling experience with neutral current flowing a on a gas main, I have a old thread on it, it was a perfect storm of a 120/208 3-wire apartment service and old 3-wire range receptacles powering combination gas/electric ranges.

It took a very long time to make the code change to require the four wire circuit, because they could not cite actual incidents where there were injuries from the 3 wire circuit.

I don't know if any gas explosions have been caused by parallel neutral current on flexible gas line, but I doubt any fire investigator would know to look for that as a cause. I am just a dumb electrician, it took me a while to wrap my head around objectionable current and why the old 3-wire can be a problem.

 

[Eddie702]

@pedro1200
If you're the owner of a huge apartment building full of electric ranges and dryers rewiring all of that without a good enough reason could be a real issue. Shall we require all knob & tube be replaced or the old BX with no bonding strip?. When would t ever end.

The house you wire tomorrow won't meet code anymore as soon as the next code book comes out

 

[pedro1200]

We had quite the hair pulling experience with neutral current flowing a on a gas main, I have a old thread on it, it was a perfect storm of a 120/208 3-wire apartment service and old 3-wire range receptacles powering combination gas/electric ranges.

I don't know if any gas explosions have been caused by parallel neutral current on flexible gas line, but I doubt any fire investigator would know to look for that as a cause. I am just a dumb electrician, it took me a while to wrap my head around objectionable current and why the old 3-wire

@pedro1200
If you're the owner of a huge apartment building full of electric ranges and dryers rewiring all of that without a good enough reason could be a real issue. Shall we require all knob & tube be replaced or the old BX with no bonding strip?. When would t ever end.

The house you wire tomorrow won't meet code anymore as soon as the next code book comes out

Yes replace it all. If its not good enough for the latest code that means we learned something or I guess they changed probably the code just to change the code. My argument is the new vs old construction theory. So you are working on an old construction you are allowed to install something thats not necessary the best installation as proven by the code changes.

 

[pedro1200]

@pedro1200
If you're the owner of a huge apartment building full of electric ranges and dryers rewiring all of that without a good enough reason could be a real issue. Shall we require all knob & tube be replaced or the old BX with no bonding strip?. When would t ever end.

The house you wire tomorrow won't meet code anymore as soon as the next code book comes out

So none of this is about safety its about convenience

 

[pipe_bender]

Knob and tube is very safe IMO, until a handyman extends it with with lamp cord and speaker wire (literally removed some today)
I'd say the old range circuits are a hazard, more akin to this, inspection people are flabbergasted when they see this but a old crows foot range (or dryer) is the same thing:

 

[Joe.B]

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/t19a06/client_kept_getting_shocked_when_they_touched

 

[pedro1200]

Knob and tube is very safe IMO, until a handyman extends it with with lamp cord and speaker wire (literally removed some today)
I'd say the old range circuits are a hazard, more akin to this, inspection people are flabbergasted when they see this but a old crows foot range (or dryer) is the same thing:
View attachment 2580652

Apparently its all safe as long as electrons only flow in new construction lol

 

[Joe.B]

 

[pedro1200]

manufactures helping to write code , what can go wrong? Lol
[/QUOTE]

 

[pedro1200]

The war is over the battle continues. I think the electrons are smarter than some of the code panel members…….just saying

 

[LarryFine]

Yes replace it all.

Sure, as long as you're willing to pay for it.

 

[LarryFine]

So none of this is about safety its about convenience

Are those the only possibilities?

 

[pedro1200]

Or dont replace and don’t write code language that would replace past code language