I'm laying out receptacle locations for a residence. They have a library. In reviewing 210.52 it seems if I have a wall with a shelves of books I can not treat it as an opening or a break in the wall space. I therefore have to show a receptacle. It will be behind books and never used, but it will meet code. Am I incorrect in my reading of 210.52? Thanks for your assistance.
Receptacle location - Library
- Thread starter spsnyder
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Floor receptacles can also meet the spacing requirement if they can be installed within 18 in of the wall.
Floor receptacles can also meet the spacing requirement if they can be installed within 18 in of the wall.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Receptacle location - Library
If there is no "wall" per se, if the space that you would customarily call a "wall" is entirely occupied by built-in shelves, then I think you do not need a receptacle at all. No wall, no receptacle.
That said, I think the owner's needs would be better served if there were at least on receptacle in the area. They may want to put a reading chair and a floor lamp against the bookcase.
If there is no "wall" per se, if the space that you would customarily call a "wall" is entirely occupied by built-in shelves, then I think you do not need a receptacle at all. No wall, no receptacle.
That said, I think the owner's needs would be better served if there were at least on receptacle in the area. They may want to put a reading chair and a floor lamp against the bookcase.
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Charlie,
I hate to disagree, but a wall is a wall, whether or not it is also a bookshelf. If a room divider is considered a wall, and a railing may be considered a wall, then certainly a wall with a bookshelf on it is considered a wall. As others have stated a floor receptacle or some ingenious receptacle location can cover this area. As you stated the homeowner will surely come up with a way to place something on or in front of the bookshelf that requires power and we don't want them to supply these items with extension cords. In fact a "library" is one of the areas specifically listed in 210.52(A) that requires standard receptacle spacing.
Charlie,
I hate to disagree, but a wall is a wall, whether or not it is also a bookshelf. If a room divider is considered a wall, and a railing may be considered a wall, then certainly a wall with a bookshelf on it is considered a wall. As others have stated a floor receptacle or some ingenious receptacle location can cover this area. As you stated the homeowner will surely come up with a way to place something on or in front of the bookshelf that requires power and we don't want them to supply these items with extension cords. In fact a "library" is one of the areas specifically listed in 210.52(A) that requires standard receptacle spacing.
- Location
- New Jersey
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- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Receptacle location - Library
I agree with Charlie. A book case isn't a wall. I don't see someone putting a table with a lamp in front of the bookcase. This does not fit the definition of wall space.
I agree with Charlie. A book case isn't a wall. I don't see someone putting a table with a lamp in front of the bookcase. This does not fit the definition of wall space.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Receptacle location - Library
"A wall is a wall" True
Built in bookcases are not a wall.
"A wall is a wall" True
Built in bookcases are not a wall.
john m. caloggero
Senior Member
Re: Receptacle location - Library
I must agree with HASKINDM. The Code is very clear where it gives examples of "wall space" in section 210.52(A)(2). Remember it says "As used in this section,......" It is not a "wall" that is referenced, it is the "wall space". A railing certainly is not a wall, but a receptacle is required in that space.
I must agree with HASKINDM. The Code is very clear where it gives examples of "wall space" in section 210.52(A)(2). Remember it says "As used in this section,......" It is not a "wall" that is referenced, it is the "wall space". A railing certainly is not a wall, but a receptacle is required in that space.
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Thank you all very much for your help. I hate to disagree with Charlie, mostly because he's a great source of info. and is right most of the time, but I read it that since there is a wall behingd the books I have to consider it wall space. Also, this can't be the only Library with books on shelves, so it seems to me that the NEC clearly wants this room to be included in the requirements since they specifically list libraries.
I have a nook in the room that looks like an excellent place to sit and read. That location will certainly have a receptacle. Other that that the room is floor to wall built in bookshelves and cabinets. I plan on showing the receptacles in the kickboard. I would think one would be used during cleaning anyway to avoid using the one in the nook. So there's going to end up being ~3 extra receptacles that in my mind are unnessessary, but required. Maybe I can convince the architect to call it a very wide hall with books
. Then I'd be fine. Thank you all again.
Thank you all very much for your help. I hate to disagree with Charlie, mostly because he's a great source of info. and is right most of the time, but I read it that since there is a wall behingd the books I have to consider it wall space. Also, this can't be the only Library with books on shelves, so it seems to me that the NEC clearly wants this room to be included in the requirements since they specifically list libraries.
I have a nook in the room that looks like an excellent place to sit and read. That location will certainly have a receptacle. Other that that the room is floor to wall built in bookshelves and cabinets. I plan on showing the receptacles in the kickboard. I would think one would be used during cleaning anyway to avoid using the one in the nook. So there's going to end up being ~3 extra receptacles that in my mind are unnessessary, but required. Maybe I can convince the architect to call it a very wide hall with books
. Then I'd be fine. Thank you all again.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Check out this thread.
I'd say no receptacles required in the shelves, they are an opening in the wall space. I love the idea of the receptacles in the toe-kick, that is the best of both worlds.
Actually doing it would be tricky, you'd need to coordinate with the cabinet guys. If it was a tall toekick (say, 6" or better) you could probably do all the wiring on the trim with an unfinished basement. Something to think about.
Definutely talk to your local inspector before proceeding.
Check out this thread.
I'd say no receptacles required in the shelves, they are an opening in the wall space. I love the idea of the receptacles in the toe-kick, that is the best of both worlds.
Actually doing it would be tricky, you'd need to coordinate with the cabinet guys. If it was a tall toekick (say, 6" or better) you could probably do all the wiring on the trim with an unfinished basement. Something to think about.
Definutely talk to your local inspector before proceeding.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Receptacle location - Library
You don't get to read 210.52(A), if you are not looking at a wall. That article is not giving us the definition of "wall," nor the definition of "wall space." It is describing how to count the wall space, given that you have a wall, and it is stating the requirements for placing receptacles along the wall.
Not every manner and type of railing is included in 210.52(A)(3). Take a four foot long 2 x 4 board. This is your bottom piece. Glue and nail a three foot long, one inch round dowel every six inches along the 2 x 4. Then glue and nail another 2 x 4 on top. You just built a railing. Install this railing as the permanent separation ("fixed divider") between two rooms. Exactly where are we going to install the "required" receptacle? Tie wrap it to one of the dowels? Such a thing has no wall space, so it does not need a receptacle.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Receptacle location - Library
On the floor within 18" of the rail. That would satisfy the required receptacle for this fixed room divider.
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Charlie,
The situation that you described is exactly the type of installation that requires a receptacle. A very popular house in this area is the "split foyer". You enter the front door and go down a short flight of steps to the "basement" or up a short flight to the living area. Usually the area at the top of the stairs is a living room. This room is separated from the stairway by a railing. The railing is usually wood or sometimes cast iron. In every jurisdiction that I know of, this railing is considered wall space and a receptacle is required. This is usually accomplished by installing a floor mounted receptacle.
[ January 12, 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]
Charlie,
The situation that you described is exactly the type of installation that requires a receptacle. A very popular house in this area is the "split foyer". You enter the front door and go down a short flight of steps to the "basement" or up a short flight to the living area. Usually the area at the top of the stairs is a living room. This room is separated from the stairway by a railing. The railing is usually wood or sometimes cast iron. In every jurisdiction that I know of, this railing is considered wall space and a receptacle is required. This is usually accomplished by installing a floor mounted receptacle.
[ January 12, 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Receptacle location - Library
A little common sense would tell you that someone would may place a piece of furniture in front of a fixed room divider. They might even put in a table and plug in a table lamp but I don't see why someone would want to put something in front of a bookcase.
I agree that a railing that is a fixed room divider or a wall would require a receptacle(s), but how does this apply to a bookcase which would be neither a wall or a divider?Originally posted by ryan_618:
On the floor within 18" of the rail. That would satisfy the required receptacle for this fixed room divider.
A little common sense would tell you that someone would may place a piece of furniture in front of a fixed room divider. They might even put in a table and plug in a table lamp but I don't see why someone would want to put something in front of a bookcase.
Re: Receptacle location - Library
My understanding is that this is not a freestanding bookcase, but a library with walls covered with shelves. Installing shelves on a wall does not negate the fact that it is still a wall, and libraries are speifically mentioned in 210 as requiring normal receptacle spacing.
[ January 12, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]
My understanding is that this is not a freestanding bookcase, but a library with walls covered with shelves. Installing shelves on a wall does not negate the fact that it is still a wall, and libraries are speifically mentioned in 210 as requiring normal receptacle spacing.
[ January 12, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Receptacle location - Library
What if these bookcases all have doors?
Re: Receptacle location - Library
Scott: I guess you could make them cabinets, not bookshelves, but that doesn't mean that outlet spacing is negated (although islands are all cabinet, outlet(s) is still required). You could make the doors full size and then the wall/shelf space on each side would probably need an outlet as per outlet spacing requirements.
I can see why so many wanted online NECs, their books were all torn up because they couldn't let go. Mine has indented fingerprints, but eventually i let go.
paul
Scott: I guess you could make them cabinets, not bookshelves, but that doesn't mean that outlet spacing is negated (although islands are all cabinet, outlet(s) is still required). You could make the doors full size and then the wall/shelf space on each side would probably need an outlet as per outlet spacing requirements.
I can see why so many wanted online NECs, their books were all torn up because they couldn't let go. Mine has indented fingerprints, but eventually i let go.
paul
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