Receptacles for RV's

[NTesla76]

2017 NEC Does 210.8(B)(4) include receptacles for RV's? 551.71(F) requires GFCI protection for RV parks for 125 volt single phase 15 and 20 amp receptacles. Would an RV park be considered a non dwelling unit? What if the receptacle for an RV isn't in a RV park such as in a field with power?

 

[kwired]

2017 NEC Does 210.8(B)(4) include receptacles for RV's? 551.71(F) requires GFCI protection for RV parks for 125 volt single phase 15 and 20 amp receptacles. Would an RV park be considered a non dwelling unit? What if the receptacle for an RV isn't in a RV park such as in a field with power?

I have brought up same topic, nobody really knows.

Quite a few say GFCI not required because 551 doesn't mention it, but I think that 210.8 requires it unless 551 would otherwise say it isn't required.

I question why they expanded some of the 210.8 requirements but that is a different story then complying with what it says.

 

[beanland]

50A, 30A, 20A

50A, 30A, 20A

Typical commercial RV pedestals include 50A 240V, 30A 120V and 20A 120V GFCI receptacles. Because it is outdoors and you cannot control the use, GFCI would be required.

 

[Coppersmith]

Typical commercial RV pedestals include 50A 240V, 30A 120V and 20A 120V GFCI receptacles. Because it is outdoors and you cannot control the use, GFCI would be required.

I've done a lot of RVing and have never seen a GFCI 30 or 50 amp breaker in those pedestals.

 

[beanland]

Comma?

Comma?

LOL, the commas got me. The GFCI only applies to the last item in the lost.

 

[kwired]

I've done a lot of RVing and have never seen a GFCI 30 or 50 amp breaker in those pedestals.

And they weren't required before 2017 NEC but at same time is not so clear if 2017 intends them to be GFCI protected or not.

I still think the general rule in 210.8 as written means you must.

Some think because the 15/20 amp receptacle is mentioned in 551 but the 30 and 50 amp recptacles are not mentioned in 551 that the 30 and 50 don't require GFCI. Nothing changed in 551 though, and might be an oversight by NEC CMP's is my thoughts on it.

That said and from what I have found, the only justification for adding some of the GFCI requirements they did add was nothing more then "they now have products out there that meet the listing requirements", but no real justification that there is or has been higher risk of shock/electrocutions for the areas they have added to the list.

 

[NTesla76]

I'm in agreement with Kwired. I think according to 210.8, you need GFCI protection as well. But it is an interesting conversation between the two code sections.

 

[jap]

Because it is outdoors and you cannot control the use, GFCI would be required.

Not true.


JAP>

 

[kwired]

Before 2017 551 required GFCI on the 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle - but IMO was redundant because 210.8 would have required GFCI anyhow. Now that they added the 30 and 50 amp receptacle to 210.8, I still see it redundant to mention anything in 551, unless it would happen to relieve the general rule in 210.8.

I don't necessarily think GFCI should be required for the 30 or the 50 amp receptacle at an RV location, but I do interpret 2017 NEC to require it.

 

[mopowr steve]

I’ll be working on another campground expansion this year, I guess we’ll see what the manufacturer sends us. One would think that the product would be compliant:blink: (or see how they interpret it) whether that means gfi or not.

 

[kwired]

I’ll be working on another campground expansion this year, I guess we’ll see what the manufacturer sends us. One would think that the product would be compliant:blink: (or see how they interpret it) whether that means gfi or not.

Might be that pedestal manufacturers haven't caught up with code yet. When I first questioned this a while ago I was looking in online catalogs and wasn't finding any with GFCI's factory installed for the 30 or 50 amp receptacles, doesn't necessarily mean they don't have them and haven't updated the catalog yet.

 

[lmchenry]

RV - Dwelling unit

RV - Dwelling unit

Is a RV a dwelling unit?

 

[kwired]

Is a RV a dwelling unit?

Per NEC and probably most if not all other NFPA documents, no.

 

[480sparky]

Per NEC and probably most if not all other NFPA documents, no.

I disagree. 90.2 says they're included in the scope of the NEC:

90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation and removal of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways; signaling and communications conductors, equipment, and raceways; and optical fiber cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings....

And an RV would easily fit the NEC definition:

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

 

[kwired]

I disagree. 90.2 says they're included in the scope of the NEC:



And an RV would easily fit the NEC definition:

Ok, I see what you are saying but I'm not conceding to what you mentioned just yet, I don't think it is quite that simple even if that is correct.

First lets look at a definition in 551.2

Recreational Vehicle.
A vehicular-type unit primarily designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, which either has its own motive power or is mounted on or drawn by another vehicle.

Some general requirements for dwellings in chapters 1-4 don't necessarily apply to them either, in particular 210.52.

 

[480sparky]

Ok, I see what you are saying but I'm not conceding to what you mentioned just yet, I don't think it is quite that simple even if that is correct.

First lets look at a definition in 551.2




Some general requirements for dwellings in chapters 1-4 don't necessarily apply to them either, in particular 210.52.

There's nothing in the definition of a dwelling that excludes 'temporary' use. If so, 'vacation' houses would be the same.

 

[kwired]

There's nothing in the definition of a dwelling that excludes 'temporary' use. If so, 'vacation' houses would be the same.

I agree. RV's still don't have to meet all the same requirements that other applications that meet dwelling definition must meet. Neither does all mobile homes. I won't say RV's are not dwellings, but they are not a typical dwelling and not all of them meet the definition of dwelling either.

 

[jap]

Let us pray...... please Lord, don't let this rule include 50a RV outlets,,,,,camping is supposed to be fun,,,, not stressful by having to worry about going to confession when we get back home for taking your name in vane whilst continually running outside to reset The GFI protected outlet on our camping trip... amen.

Jap>

 

[Adamjamma]

I would expect a high level gfci on the 50 amp outlet..like 100ma or such... with a requirement of lower limits in the RVs... you still want some protection due to wet ground etc...

 

[ptonsparky]

We installed a GFCI CB ahead of a 30 amp 120v receptacle last year. Worked well. Tripped the moment the snack trailer was plugged in. Mice, freezer, etc.
Still, it was close to putting GFCI protection at the main breaker in a house. Work it one circuit at a time, although IIRC, they all had problems.