Receptacles for RV's

[jap]

but the higher amp outlets are feeders,

Sure about that?


JAP>

 

[rambojoe]

. View attachment 21345 [/QUOTE]

I though gfci's had 2 ct's.. in this illustration it would in theory read zero, then when current goes elsewhere it would read what ever current is faulting- not saying you couldn't design the line break this way- but don't they monitor each line? (off topic I know, well- sorry) now I want to break one open again...

 

[jap]

. View attachment 21345

I though gfci's had 2 ct's.. in this illustration it would in theory read zero, then when current goes elsewhere it would read what ever current is faulting- not saying you couldn't design the line break this way- but don't they monitor each line? (off topic I know, well- sorry) now I want to break one open again...[/QUOTE]


I would think there would be (2) separate CT's.

One for the hot and one for the neutral.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

I think what we are overlooking, in a way, is the requirement for the use of RV sockets and receptacles, which includes certain features to reduce shock when being handled. The 15 or 20 amp outlets in the pedestals are required to be gfci protected, but the higher amp outlets are feeders, in effect, not regular outlets. So, they will be split in the individual RV. Thus it is up to the RV owner to make sure their RV is properly protected inside, not the park owner. Many parks, at least online info is saying, are only allowing RVs of certain ages, which I think may be in part to make sure some of the newer safety features are in those RVs.
But, I am in Europe not the USA and have not used an RV since 1998..lol

From NEC perspective we still have a receptacle and cord cap, and hopefully approved flexible cord, and the issues that go with them such as cord deterioration over time, worn receptacle/cord cap components, missing/broken cord cap pins, etc. Now some of those things aren't as common to run into on the 50 amp receptacle/cap as they are with the 20 amp receptacle/cap and is likely the reason GFCI was required for quite some time now on 15/20 amp receptacles 120 volts not just for the RV but in a lot of places.

Now they are trying to expand the requirement. The new requirement in 2017 IMO should include a 50 amp receptacle for RV's, as is worded. I don't necessarily believe it is necessary to protect them, but as they worded things, I think an inspector is correct to enforce it that way. I don't know if CMP intended to protect 30 and 50 amp RV receptacles. But if 210.8 is left as is then 551 needs something specifically exempting the receptacle from GFCI protection IMO if they don't intend to require this application to have protection.

The way it is supposed to work is chapters 1-4 are general rules, unless 5-7 tell you otherwise. The general rule is in 210.8, there is nothing in 551 that changes what is in 210.8.

 

[Craigv]

Sure about that?


JAP>

It's reasonable to accept that the 30 and 50 amp receptacles are feeders. There is no way to anticipate the use of a receptacle, but when used to power an RV, these circuits are feeders. I've spent a lot of time at RV parks, and have seen a lot of weird...but haven't seen a range plugged directly into an RV pedestal.

 

[jap]

It's reasonable to accept that the 30 and 50 amp receptacles are feeders. There is no way to anticipate the use of a receptacle, but when used to power an RV, these circuits are feeders. I've spent a lot of time at RV parks, and have seen a lot of weird...but haven't seen a range plugged directly into an RV pedestal.

So now we have to extend our definition of a branch circuit to a device that's plugged into a receptacle just because it has supplementary overcurrent protection built into it?

JAP>

 

[jap]

As far as the code is concerned, I would think the 50a Branch Circuit stopped at the Receptacle outlet.

JAP>

 

[Craigv]

So now we have to extend our definition of a branch circuit to a device that's plugged into a receptacle just because it has supplementary overcurrent protection built into it?

JAP>

Did anyone suggest a change of the branch circuit definition?

 

[Adamjamma]

but, JAP, are we required to have GFCI on a Range or on a Dryer? If So, When was it added and where are the breakers or outlets for it? In fact, especially in a trailer park, you would require outlets designed for it, as one would not be able to find the breaker panel in many instances that covers your specific outlet.

 

[ptonsparky]

but, JAP, are we required to have GFCI on a Range or on a Dryer? If So, When was it added and where are the breakers or outlets for it? In fact, especially in a trailer park, you would require outlets designed for it, as one would not be able to find the breaker panel in many instances that covers your specific outlet.

Camp grounds I have been to.include the CBs required for that lot in the pedistal serving it. I've never measured, but within a few feet.

The breaker for that feeder is remote and could be 100, 200, or more.

 

[Adamjamma]

so they are now actual small sub panels now, like I used on my welder and in my shop, but with the outlets on them below the breakers...ok...
Then there are GFCI breakers that should fit and do the job, if required... just very high cost.

 

[kwired]

As far as the code is concerned, I would think the 50a Branch Circuit stopped at the Receptacle outlet.

JAP>

but, JAP, are we required to have GFCI on a Range or on a Dryer? If So, When was it added and where are the breakers or outlets for it? In fact, especially in a trailer park, you would require outlets designed for it, as one would not be able to find the breaker panel in many instances that covers your specific outlet.

Per 2017 NEC it depends on location of the receptacle. In a dwelling not necessary, as worded could even be outside at a dwelling and not necessary. But for non dwelling there are several places mentioned in 210.8(B) that would require protection.

Household range in a commercial kitchen - per the 2017 change yes it would need GFCI. I suspect this is one application that they were focusing on when they made that change. Not so much the range but the 50 amp and 150 volt or less to ground receptacle involved - which same receptacle is commonly used for other commercial kitchen appliances. That and the commercial kitchen requirement is mostly because many of them get washed down these days on a regular basis.

 

[kwired]

The 50 amp receptacle is on a branch circuit in perspective to the RV park, or wherever the receptacle is located.

From the perspective of the RV itself, it is part of the feeder to the RV.

 

[kwired]

. View attachment 21345

I though gfci's had 2 ct's.. in this illustration it would in theory read zero, then when current goes elsewhere it would read what ever current is faulting- not saying you couldn't design the line break this way- but don't they monitor each line? (off topic I know, well- sorry) now I want to break one open again...

Not saying they can't have multiple CT's, but I think the most common method is a single CT. If all circuit conductors pass through it and there is no leakage to outside the intended circuit net CT output is zero, unbalance it and you start to get output, is all a matter of setting up how much to allow before tripping.

 

[jap]

Camp grounds I have been to.include the CBs required for that lot in the pedistal serving it. I've never measured, but within a few feet.

The breaker for that feeder is remote and could be 100, 200, or more.

This is exactly correct.

The wiring from the Main Distribution Panel in an RV Park to the RV pedestal is the "Feeder".

The wiring from the 2p 50a breaker in the pedestal to the 50a receptacle located in the pedestal is Branch Circuit.

JAP>

 

[jap]

but, JAP, are we required to have GFCI on a Range or on a Dryer? If So, When was it added and where are the breakers or outlets for it? In fact, especially in a trailer park, you would require outlets designed for it, as one would not be able to find the breaker panel in many instances that covers your specific outlet.

I have no idea what your talking about here.

What does this have to do with what's a feeder and what's a branch circuit?

JAP>

 

[jap]

The 50 amp receptacle is on a branch circuit in perspective to the RV park, or wherever the receptacle is located.

From the perspective of the RV itself, it is part of the feeder to the RV.

That is correct.

JAP>

 

[jap]

but, JAP, are we required to have GFCI on a Range or on a Dryer? If So, When was it added and where are the breakers or outlets for it? In fact, especially in a trailer park, you would require outlets designed for it, as one would not be able to find the breaker panel in many instances that covers your specific outlet.

You stated in post #40 that the higher amperage outlets in the RV Pedestals were Feeders.

They are not.

The 30 and 50a receptacles in the RV outlets are branch circuits.

Yes, the RV plugs into these receptacles and the cord on the RV becomes the Feeder to the Subpanel in the RV itself, but, that doesn't change the fact that the wiring from the breakers in the pedestal to the 30 and 50 amp outlets are still branch circuits.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Unless they change the wording, or give an exception, as it is now, the wording would seem indicate that GFI protection is required for
30 and 50 amp receptacles located in an RV Pedestal.


JAP>

 

[Craigv]

The 50 amp receptacle is on a branch circuit in perspective to the RV park, or wherever the receptacle is located.

From the perspective of the RV itself, it is part of the feeder to the RV.

Exactly. As I wrote, we can't speculate how a receptacle will be used, but in an RV park, the only things plugged into 30's and 50's are RV's. While in use, the circuit is a feeder. While not in use, it is of course a branch. It meets each definition depending upon its state. The same situation applies to marina shore power pedestals.

As as far as the Code is concerned, it's a branch circuit because it is always possible to plug in something that doesn't have additional OCPD.

Hopefully all this answers Adamjamma's question.