Recessed Light Design
- Thread starter frank_n
- Start date
- Status
frank_n
Senior Member
- Location
- Central NJ
celtic said:
That guide suggest spacing the cans 8' apart for an 8' ceiling. However, I assume that is for floodlights. I don't see any 50 watt R20 floodlights. They are all spotlights. Therefore I doubt the guide would work.
I think that Dennis' layout may be the best. 12 cans for this space seems like a lot to me, but if that's what is takes, so be it. It's more money in my pocket, I just hope the room looks good.
Any other ideas?
ItsHot
Senior Member
- Location
- A little piece of heaven!
type ceiling
type ceiling
Hey Frank, what type ceiling does the room have? I'm guessing drywall. When you have lay in ceiling tiles it makes the decession process easier. 2x2 tiles you can move fixtures around until you get what you want.
type ceiling
Hey Frank, what type ceiling does the room have? I'm guessing drywall. When you have lay in ceiling tiles it makes the decession process easier. 2x2 tiles you can move fixtures around until you get what you want.
frank_n
Senior Member
- Location
- Central NJ
ItsHot said:
It's drywall.
ItsHot
Senior Member
- Location
- A little piece of heaven!
safety glasses
safety glasses
safety glasses
That figures, don't forget your safety glasses. I scratched my cornea once cutting out holes for can lights. OUCH!frank_n said:
6 in. cans - your kidding ,right ?
I would do task lighting - undercounter lighting - low voltage for color uniformity
cupboard lighting - 3 in cans lowvoltage 6in.s from centerline of cupboard door - as many as you need
and then general lighting two rows down center of kitchen
now this for larger kitchens so you can cut back on the general if a small kitchen
color is important- Quartz bulbs
I would not even suggest 6 in cans , in fact I would reccomend getting rid of them
I would do task lighting - undercounter lighting - low voltage for color uniformity
cupboard lighting - 3 in cans lowvoltage 6in.s from centerline of cupboard door - as many as you need
and then general lighting two rows down center of kitchen
now this for larger kitchens so you can cut back on the general if a small kitchen
color is important- Quartz bulbs
I would not even suggest 6 in cans , in fact I would reccomend getting rid of them
Last edited:
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I figure there aught to be a lighting design forum.... It would be one where all of our answers are not the same..... :grin:
That said, I have worked with some really good lighting designers - a few published authors in the field. And I'll tell you most of us have more experiance in what pleases the customer or not than they do.... :roll: We get the complaints....
Let me put on my lisp....
[tightjawedlispandhandgestures]It truely depends on the taste and needs of the customer. Direct overlapping throws for reading and task lighting, as well as object de art lighting as well. When I hear the term 'general lighting' I would assume you want light everywhere? And for that I would suggest the use of clear specular trims to maximize beam spread in say a 4" par20 fixture, and in a quanity to be determined by the lamp and fixture combination room dimentions and of course most importantly cieling hieght. Now, before I continue to suggest 'general lighting', might I ask what the use and activity of this room would be used for? [/tightjawedlispandhandgestures]
Black trims are used for direct spot lighting where you do not want light light bleeding away from the area you direct it at.
White or matte specular trims for when you want to spread it around a bit with low cielings etc - lamp deep in the trim. With higher cielings lower in the trim - at which point the trim is only for appearance. Or you could go deeper to reduce glare...
Clear and matte/semi specular reflector trims will make best use of both direct light, and the reflected light of the trim - usually thowing at exreamly wide scallopes ~85 degrees from the trim itself, and best for 'general lighting' of areas with low cielings IMO. Use Clear if glare is not a problem, and matte/semi if it is an issue.
Other factors to consider in recessed fixtures is glare, cut-off and scalloping.
Glare is self-explaining, cut-off is the angle the lamp is throwing direct light from the fixture, and determines if the lamp will be seen by the eye, if sitting or standing it will differ, and determine glare if placement is not correct.
Scalloping is that arch effect seen on walls and other vertical surfaces. Some people like it, some HATE it. There are two types, direct (hot spotting type) and indirect the later determined by the choice of trim. Black will have little secondary indirect light, and more reflective the trim the more indirect light will end up in the wall. The angle and radius of the scallop are determined by the distance from the wall to the can. Closer = higher - further = lower. Make what you will of this effect - but do it wisely. If your cans are not equally spaced the scallops won't be either.... If too close - they hot spot areas of the wall higher and glare from light colored surfaces.
FYI you could get used to taking a look at the photometric graphs on the spec sheets fixtures you install and get a better idea of how other fixtures will have different effects... Or you could do what this old school guy I worked for did - bring a light on a pole and a few trims to show the customer.... :grin: "So you want them about here???"
That said, I have worked with some really good lighting designers - a few published authors in the field. And I'll tell you most of us have more experiance in what pleases the customer or not than they do.... :roll: We get the complaints....
Let me put on my lisp....
[tightjawedlispandhandgestures]It truely depends on the taste and needs of the customer. Direct overlapping throws for reading and task lighting, as well as object de art lighting as well. When I hear the term 'general lighting' I would assume you want light everywhere? And for that I would suggest the use of clear specular trims to maximize beam spread in say a 4" par20 fixture, and in a quanity to be determined by the lamp and fixture combination room dimentions and of course most importantly cieling hieght. Now, before I continue to suggest 'general lighting', might I ask what the use and activity of this room would be used for? [/tightjawedlispandhandgestures]
Black trims are used for direct spot lighting where you do not want light light bleeding away from the area you direct it at.
White or matte specular trims for when you want to spread it around a bit with low cielings etc - lamp deep in the trim. With higher cielings lower in the trim - at which point the trim is only for appearance. Or you could go deeper to reduce glare...
Clear and matte/semi specular reflector trims will make best use of both direct light, and the reflected light of the trim - usually thowing at exreamly wide scallopes ~85 degrees from the trim itself, and best for 'general lighting' of areas with low cielings IMO. Use Clear if glare is not a problem, and matte/semi if it is an issue.
Other factors to consider in recessed fixtures is glare, cut-off and scalloping.
Glare is self-explaining, cut-off is the angle the lamp is throwing direct light from the fixture, and determines if the lamp will be seen by the eye, if sitting or standing it will differ, and determine glare if placement is not correct.
Scalloping is that arch effect seen on walls and other vertical surfaces. Some people like it, some HATE it. There are two types, direct (hot spotting type) and indirect the later determined by the choice of trim. Black will have little secondary indirect light, and more reflective the trim the more indirect light will end up in the wall. The angle and radius of the scallop are determined by the distance from the wall to the can. Closer = higher - further = lower. Make what you will of this effect - but do it wisely. If your cans are not equally spaced the scallops won't be either.... If too close - they hot spot areas of the wall higher and glare from light colored surfaces.
FYI you could get used to taking a look at the photometric graphs on the spec sheets fixtures you install and get a better idea of how other fixtures will have different effects... Or you could do what this old school guy I worked for did - bring a light on a pole and a few trims to show the customer.... :grin: "So you want them about here???"
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
frank_n said:
You will need a whole bunch if you are trying to light a room with 50 wat r 20's.
Interior designers, and some lighting designers are the worst, and never let the customer tell you what they want, that could end bad.
I designed a lighting layout for a kitchen using 5" cans. The people obvioulsy were not impressed. They had a lighting designer come in. Same layout, all 4" 50 watt par 20 floods. To make things worse they used anti glare lamps that cut down on the lumen output even more. Dark cabinets, dark walls, uncomfortably dark kitchen.
Another one I put in 6" cans along the edge of the counter where they belong, before 5" were popular and readily available. The lady freaked out because her art teacher said they were too big and should not be near the cabinets. Insisted I replace them with 4" in two rows in the center of the room.
Her neighbor, who happend to be an inspector also threw me under the bus and told her two rows of four in the middle of the room. Obviously he has never wired a kitchen before.
Battled with her but then surrendered. I patched the ceiling and put in the 4". Tried to at least install par20's but nope. So kitchen was waaaayyy dark. Next time I went there it was clear she was not happy with the lack of lighting. That part made me very happy!
frank_n
Senior Member
- Location
- Central NJ
Tori said:
Tori,
Would you recommend low-voltage 3" for the living room? I did! When the interior designer recommended mini-lights, I suggested 3-inch or 4-inch low-voltage MR16's. I was planning on getting a MR16 flood, but wasn't sure how to space them.
This room is a living room. The customers (husband & wife) are not sure what they want, but they do understand that they want general lighting and not accent lighting.
From reading this board, I know that there isn't one way to light it. I'd like to give them a proposal with 4" 50-watt R20 spots, 3" 50-watt MR-16 floods and let them decide.
Since you have installed the MR16's for use in this situation, can you recommend how to space the lights for a 16' X 13.5' living room?
Thanks to everyone for their responses.
One last thing, has anyone ever used recessed fixtures bought on the Internet, such as those on http://www.usalight.com/hbl3r_c_57_p_1_pr_30.html ? A general contractor I knew used them on a high-end kitchen remodel about 6-7 years ago. (He bought them, I installed them)
Frank
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Frank, I would not use low voltage cans for general illumination because that is not what they are design for.
I also would not buy a no name brand off the internet simply because in years to come if someone wants a part or a new trim they may not be there. You can bet Halo will be there as well as a few others.
Also, in spite of what others are saying I would use 6" cans or even 5" cans before I would use 4" cans for general lighting.
The 6" would be your cheapest bet and you could probably spread the layout I presented a bit more-- say 6' apart. I would not go more than 6', in fact, I prefer 5'.
If the HO wants 4" so be it then you need the layout I presented esp. if these people are getting old. Remeber 12 cans at 50 watt it may be wise to use a 1000 watt dimmer. Lutron 600 watt dimmers may be good at 100% but I would probably use the 1000 watt.
I also would not buy a no name brand off the internet simply because in years to come if someone wants a part or a new trim they may not be there. You can bet Halo will be there as well as a few others.
Also, in spite of what others are saying I would use 6" cans or even 5" cans before I would use 4" cans for general lighting.
The 6" would be your cheapest bet and you could probably spread the layout I presented a bit more-- say 6' apart. I would not go more than 6', in fact, I prefer 5'.
If the HO wants 4" so be it then you need the layout I presented esp. if these people are getting old. Remeber 12 cans at 50 watt it may be wise to use a 1000 watt dimmer. Lutron 600 watt dimmers may be good at 100% but I would probably use the 1000 watt.
frank_n
Senior Member
- Location
- Central NJ
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree, but 50-watt R20 spots aren't designed for general lighting either. I cannot find 50-watt R20 floods. Since they make 50-watt MR16 floods, I think they may be better suited for general lighting.
I originally proposed 6- 6" 75W BR40's.
I agree with you about using the 1000W dimmer.
Frank
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
frank_n said:
50 watt r20 are readily available as are the 50 watt Par 20. Phillips Lighting calls them a dura max.
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/consumer/duramax/display.php?mode=2
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
frank_n said:
That is a bad idea. Spots are good for just that a spot light, NOT general lighting.
5" cans, 50 par30 or 65 BR30 white baffle, done. All materials are regularly available, not hideously ugly and way out of date like a 6" with an r40, and you wil have good lighting.
This is not that difficult.
You seem to keep arguing for the 4" so I have to ask, why are you even gathering opinions? Seems like you have your mind pretty much set.
frank_n
Senior Member
- Location
- Central NJ
electricmanscott said:
I'd like to do it your way Scott. The problem is the customer is arguing for the 4". I've done it that way in the past.
Thanks Dennis for the info on the floods.
Frank
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I don't get it. How are 5" cans such a sweet install, and 6" are so out of date? How is a can 1" larger such an abomination? The smaller the fixture, the proportionately larger the flange of the trim is.
The reason I generally prefer larger cans for general lighting is that they provide the greatest beam spread, so the lighting is more even, and fewer cans can often be used to evenly light up a given area.
Of course, smaller fixtures have their place. I often suggest, for example, using a pair of 3" or 4" cans over a double kitchen sink, when the rest of the kitchen uses 6"ers, because it reduces shadowing.
Also, the size of the room matters. A smaller room suggests smaller cans, as does a narrow area or task lighting, but for a large area where the desire is for even lighting, 6" cans still have their place.
Added: One more thing: lighting that is switched in separate groups, for different purposes, doesn't all have to match. Different areas can use different sizes, but switched groups should be the same size.
The reason I generally prefer larger cans for general lighting is that they provide the greatest beam spread, so the lighting is more even, and fewer cans can often be used to evenly light up a given area.
Of course, smaller fixtures have their place. I often suggest, for example, using a pair of 3" or 4" cans over a double kitchen sink, when the rest of the kitchen uses 6"ers, because it reduces shadowing.
Also, the size of the room matters. A smaller room suggests smaller cans, as does a narrow area or task lighting, but for a large area where the desire is for even lighting, 6" cans still have their place.
Added: One more thing: lighting that is switched in separate groups, for different purposes, doesn't all have to match. Different areas can use different sizes, but switched groups should be the same size.
Last edited:
Try the second one here:
http://www.cooperlighting.com/content/design/etools.cfm ~ Photometric Toolbox32 Version 1.52
I know I had something from Halo/Cooper.....but I can't remember exactly what it was (I'm sick so you'll have to excuse my lame responses)
http://www.cooperlighting.com/content/design/etools.cfm ~ Photometric Toolbox32 Version 1.52
I know I had something from Halo/Cooper.....but I can't remember exactly what it was (I'm sick so you'll have to excuse my lame responses)
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
If the people are insisting on the 4" go ahead. It will work but it wont be that bright.
At least if they hate it they can always hire you to install larger fixtures.
I always err on the side of brightness and dimmers. You have the light if you need it and you dim it if you don't.
For full disclosure I have mostly 6" cans in my house and they look fine. However...I mostly use 5" now and they really do look alot smaller which gives them a less obvious appearance. It is the perfect compromise between the smaller sized 4" and the wider beam spread 6".
I demoed a kitchen, familyroom, eating area friday, Took out a bunch of 6" with R 40's and some track lighting. I'll be replacing the old stuff with 26-5" recessed with 75 watt par 30 floods. The heat thrown from these lamps will lower their oil bill and raise their air conditioning costs.
I am just giving my opinion from my experince. Thousands and thousands of recessed lights installed and yes a few mistakes along the way. Mistakes I will not repeat again if I have any say over it.
In fact, in one room I have to unscrew a lamp in a can so that when I have my ceiling fan on I don't have a strobe effect. Oops.
At least if they hate it they can always hire you to install larger fixtures.
I always err on the side of brightness and dimmers. You have the light if you need it and you dim it if you don't.
For full disclosure I have mostly 6" cans in my house and they look fine. However...I mostly use 5" now and they really do look alot smaller which gives them a less obvious appearance. It is the perfect compromise between the smaller sized 4" and the wider beam spread 6".
I demoed a kitchen, familyroom, eating area friday, Took out a bunch of 6" with R 40's and some track lighting. I'll be replacing the old stuff with 26-5" recessed with 75 watt par 30 floods. The heat thrown from these lamps will lower their oil bill and raise their air conditioning costs.
I am just giving my opinion from my experince. Thousands and thousands of recessed lights installed and yes a few mistakes along the way. Mistakes I will not repeat again if I have any say over it.
In fact, in one room I have to unscrew a lamp in a can so that when I have my ceiling fan on I don't have a strobe effect. Oops.
Last edited:
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
celtic said:
6,624 posts under the weather.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
LarryFine said:
Not always true. Lightolier has a pretty small flange.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
electricmanscott said:
I hate Lightolier cans and trims. At least the residential grade ones.
- Status