Recycling Power Through a Wye-Wye Transformer

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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Ijunear... Aren't you an EE?

Phil

I ain't getting paid nor assuming liability
I do not have all the info

is he doing 100 units for a 1 hr period per month
or
100 units for a 4 hr period per day
???
how much power is actually wasted?
does it lower heating load offsetting some losses?
better to test into a nice stable load or the variable bus?
etc

I prefer to start solving a problem at the begining, not the end
starting with: is it really a problem?

I would do this
string 7 'devices' in series, out to in
first gets power
last gets load
test 7 units and the waste power of only 1 unit
:lol:
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
In trying to 'regen' back to your 480V supply bus, you need the power output of your 'device under test' to be in proper phase and voltage alignment with that supply bus in order to get power to flow back to the supply bus. Get this wrong and the wrong amount of power will flow. Get this really wrong and you will be enjoying a fireworks show.
A line commutated inverter will sort that out. Routinely used in process industries such as paper and steel.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Sure but is that not adding unneeded complexity?
It's actually one of the simpler methods for returning power to the ac supply.
It's a phase angle controlled SCR bridge. The supply takes care of the volts and frequency. The firing circuit adjusts the conduction angle.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The op said his device can synch with the supply
for all we know it may operate as a line commutated inverter

I believe that the OP said that the output of the device is the same voltage frequency and phase as its input. Which makes me wonder just what is being converted :)

-Jon
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
I believe that the OP said that the output of the device is the same voltage frequency and phase as its input. Which makes me wonder just what is being converted :)

-Jon

yep
converter input = output (v, f, ph ang) - 5% in losses
output is fed to xfmr
that does not mean it will be the same ph ang (we know the v is different) as the 480 input to the same xfmr winding

the sec will 'see' one Z, basically the 'device', apparently R + 0 j, no ph shift
the prim/480 bus another, the sec x a^2 in parallel with all the other 480 system
likely a reactive load with ph shift
 
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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
It's actually one of the simpler methods for returning power to the ac supply.
It's a phase angle controlled SCR bridge. The supply takes care of the volts and frequency. The firing circuit adjusts the conduction angle.
I am struggling to get my head around what you guys are talking about. If you connect a 100W light bulb to a service for 10 hours, that kWh is consumed. You cannot "recycle" that energy or "return" the power that the light is consuming to the service. I guess you could set up a PV module and inverter to harvest a little of the light bulb's output and return it to the grid, but it would be a minuscule amount compared to the consumption by the light. What's the point?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I am struggling to get my head around what you guys are talking about. If you connect a 100W light bulb to a service for 10 hours, that kWh is consumed. You cannot "recycle" that energy or "return" the power that the light is consuming to the service. I guess you could set up a PV module and inverter to harvest a little of the light bulb's output and return it to the grid, but it would be a minuscule amount compared to the consumption by the light. What's the point?

The issue is that this is a test environment where you want to move full power through a device that doesn't actually consume much power.

If you were testing lightbulbs, then your point is spot on. You don't actually _need_ the light being produced, you just want to demonstrate that the bulbs produce so much light given so much energy input for so many hours. In theory you could recycle some of the output, but as a practical matter it isn't worth it.

Again, this is only applicable in a situation where power moves through a device, but you don't actually _need_ the output. You need to run the power through the device to test it, and your concern is properly testing the device. You are not an end user with the device in service.

If you are testing something that is very efficient, and the output is some form of high quality energy, then there is reason to 'recycle'.

For example you want to test out a battery system. Your job is to charge the batter up and measure how much energy is required to do this, and then you have to discharge the battery and measure how much energy it can supply. The simple way to do this is to use your standard wall powered charger to store the energy, and then use a resistor as a load for the discharge. You don't actually need the output of the battery, you don't need the heat that the resistor would produce, you just want to test the battery.

Recycling this 'test' energy is the point of the discussion.

In any situation where the device under test doesn't actually _use_ most of the power being moved through the device, and you don't actually need the output of the device, then recycling the output to the input is possible and potentially valuable.

For another example, imagine that you need to test a 75kVA 480:208V transformer. For purpose of the test you have to supply 75kVA (and 65kW) to some load, but it can be any load of suitable characteristic. You only care that 75kVA and 65kW move through the transformer from primary to secondary. You don't need the output of the transformer, in fact you prefer an artificial regulated load that maintains exactly the required experiment values. You will save lots of $$ if this artificial load is some gizmo that returns that 65kW to your 480V supply bus.

-Jon
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The issue is that this is a test environment where you want to move full power through a device that doesn't actually consume much power.

If you were testing lightbulbs, then your point is spot on. You don't actually _need_ the light being produced, you just want to demonstrate that the bulbs produce so much light given so much energy input for so many hours. In theory you could recycle some of the output, but as a practical matter it isn't worth it.

Again, this is only applicable in a situation where power moves through a device, but you don't actually _need_ the output. You need to run the power through the device to test it, and your concern is properly testing the device. You are not an end user with the device in service.

If you are testing something that is very efficient, and the output is some form of high quality energy, then there is reason to 'recycle'.

For example you want to test out a battery system. Your job is to charge the batter up and measure how much energy is required to do this, and then you have to discharge the battery and measure how much energy it can supply. The simple way to do this is to use your standard wall powered charger to store the energy, and then use a resistor as a load for the discharge. You don't actually need the output of the battery, you don't need the heat that the resistor would produce, you just want to test the battery.

Recycling this 'test' energy is the point of the discussion.

In any situation where the device under test doesn't actually _use_ most of the power being moved through the device, and you don't actually need the output of the device, then recycling the output to the input is possible and potentially valuable.

For another example, imagine that you need to test a 75kVA 480:208V transformer. For purpose of the test you have to supply 75kVA (and 65kW) to some load, but it can be any load of suitable characteristic. You only care that 75kVA and 65kW move through the transformer from primary to secondary. You don't need the output of the transformer, in fact you prefer an artificial regulated load that maintains exactly the required experiment values. You will save lots of $$ if this artificial load is some gizmo that returns that 65kW to your 480V supply bus.

-Jon
Well put.
That's about the sum and substance of it.
And, as I mentioned earlier, it is also used in process industries. Paper making is an example. A machine may have fifteen or so variable speed drives some of which run constantly in regen mode. It's a 24/7 process so, while dumping the energy from the regen sections is possible, it would be costly. It's recycling on a big scale for a real world continuous process.
 

Bugman1400

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
The return 208 from the converter has to be in-phase with the 480. It also has to be the correct voltage at whatever the half tap is. If not for either case will result in neg seq current (potentially excessive) that will over heat the xfmr and lead to failure. By using a different xfmr to convert the 208 back to 480 allows you to use the impedance of the xfmr to your advantage and maintain isolation. The easiest way to test the OPs and Besoeker's design is to connect the system without the return 208 and spin it up. Then, measure the potential difference between the return 208 and the half tap on the source xfmr. Any difference in voltage will result in neg seq current flow.
 
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