Red on terminal bar?

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hbiss said:
Ok, so haven't looked at this in many years and my memory isn't what it used to be anyway. Yes, Art. 200 refers to the grounded conductor (neutral). Side note: I don't agree with not allowing #6 and #8 to be re-identified as a neutral with white tape like you can with #4 and larger. For whatever reason they had, copper was cheap then. Having to stock several reels instead of only one can be costly today.

Now talking about grounds. What article talks about the grounding conductor and not allowing say a red #12 to be re-identified with green tape for a ground? Used to be common to do this with IG receptacles. Jog my memory.

-Hal
Click to expand...

250.119.

I hate the rules for sizes smaller than #4.
 
hbiss said:
Now talking about grounds. What article talks about the grounding conductor and not allowing say a red #12 to be re-identified with green tape for a ground? Used to be common to do this with IG receptacles. Jog my memory.
Click to expand...

You are permitted to re-identify a red conductor as an EGC in a cable but it's limited to installations in areas that are serviced by qualified persons.

250.119(B) Multiconductor Cable. Where the conditions of main-
tenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons ser-
vice the installation, one or more insulated conductors in a
multiconductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be per-
mitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding
conductors at each end and at every point where the conduc-
tors are accessible by one of the following means:
(1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation with green tape or
green adhesive labels
 
infinity said:
You are permitted to re-identify a red conductor as an EGC in a cable but it's limited to installations in areas that are serviced by qualified persons.

250.119(B) Multiconductor Cable. Where the conditions of main-
tenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons ser-
vice the installation, one or more insulated conductors in a
multiconductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be per-
mitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding
conductors at each end and at every point where the conduc-
tors are accessible by one of the following means:
(1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation with green tape or
green adhesive labels
Click to expand...

Do I get to ask what “qualified” means...exiting quickly>>>>>>>>>>:cool:
 
jumper said:
Do I get to ask what “qualified” means...exiting quickly>>>>>>>>>>:cool:
Click to expand...

Right from the NEC Article 100:

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.

Informational Note: Refer to NFPA 70E-2012, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety
training requirements.
Click to expand...
 
infinity said:
You are permitted to re-identify a red conductor as an EGC in a cable but it's limited to installations in areas that are serviced by qualified persons.

250.119(B) Multiconductor Cable. Where the conditions of main-
tenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons ser-
vice the installation, one or more insulated conductors in a
multiconductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be per-
mitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding
conductors at each end and at every point where the conduc-
tors are accessible by one of the following means:
(1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length
(2) Coloring the exposed insulation green
(3) Marking the exposed insulation with green tape or
green adhesive labels
Click to expand...


Also,

You may be able to do that "At the time of installation", but, I'd disagree that you can do it after the fact.

Such as taking a red that used to be used for one side of a 240v 3wire Branch Circuit (much like what the OP's install looks like), landing it on the neutral or ground bar,and turning it into a 120v 3 wire circuit.

JAP>
 
jap said:
Also,

You may be able to do that "At the time of installation", but, I'd disagree that you can do it after the fact.

Such as taking a red that used to be used for one side of a 240v 3wire Branch Circuit (much like what the OP's install looks like), landing it on the neutral or ground bar,and turning it into a 120v 3 wire circuit.

JAP>
Click to expand...

Since the OP's installation likely doesn't meet that code section for a dwelling the point is moot anyway.
 
jumper said:
Huh, I am lost.
Click to expand...

Post #22 outlines when you can re-identify a conductor in a cable, such as taping a red conductor green and making it an EGC. This is only permitted in areas that are serviced by qualified persons. That pretty much rules out applying 250.119(B) to a single family dwelling which makes the point moot when referencing the OP's installation.
 
infinity said:
Post #22 outlines when you can re-identify a conductor in a cable, such as taping a red conductor green and making it an EGC. This is only permitted in areas that are serviced by qualified persons. That pretty much rules out applying 250.119(B) to a single family dwelling which makes the point moot when referencing the OP's installation.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Your previous post seemed to contradict that. Maybe I misread....
 
infinity said:
Post #22 outlines when you can re-identify a conductor in a cable, such as taping a red conductor green and making it an EGC. This is only permitted in areas that are serviced by qualified persons. That pretty much rules out applying 250.119(B) to a single family dwelling which makes the point moot when referencing the OP's installation.
Click to expand...

Would it apply in a licensed electrician’s house?
 
tkb said:
Would it apply in a licensed electrician’s house?
Click to expand...


I don't know, maybe, guess it depends on who's inspecting (I would do it in my own home) ;). What if he's also Chinese and prints the panel directory in Chinese, I guess it's the same argument, what if he sells the house as Hal asked?
 
tkb said:
NM also has a bare wire. I still think it is AC cable.
Click to expand...
Nowadays, it pretty much always does, wasn't always that way. Even in 1980's you still ran into some three wire with no EGC on 12 or 14 AWG.

For ranges and dryers three wire with no ground was popular until 1996 NEC made us start running an EGC for all new installations, so you saw 10, 8 and 6 AWG into the 1990's and if they were slow at adopting code maybe some saw it until around 2000.
 
Judging from the age of the panel and knowing where Tony hangs his hat it's definitively AC cable. ;)
 
kwired said:
For ranges and dryers three wire with no ground was popular until 1996 NEC made us start running an EGC for all new installations, so you saw 10, 8 and 6 AWG into the 1990's and if they were slow at adopting code maybe some saw it until around 2000.
Click to expand...
I've found range circuits using two paralleled 10-3 cables with no EGC.
 
jumper said:
Do I get to ask what “qualified” means...exiting quickly>>>>>>>>>>:cool:
Click to expand...
Well, I would say that is someone who is smart enough to only change the color of the grounding wire to gree or strip it without damaging the other wires... you need someone who knows what they are doing so you don’t break the whole system fixing a five cent problem..
 
Adamjamma said:
But two sets of 10-3 2s is four wires, so you put a green sheath on a white wire for ground..does not cover the wires in the walls but grounds the outlet and appliance..
Click to expand...

Umm.....two sets of 10-3 is six wires not four. Also a range circuit would need the neutral.
 
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