Red Tagged, 225.39

[suemarkp]

I have an outbuilding with an 8 slot MLO subpanel. It is fed with a 60A feeder from the house from a 60A breaker at the house panel. The subpanel has 3 DP breakers (15A, 15A, 40A), a SP breaker (15A), and 1 empty slot. Inspector says I need a main because I don't have a single disconnect rated at 60 amps. The panel itself is suitable for use as Service Equipment and is rated at 125 amps.

Since I'm using the 6 disconnect rule, how have others determined the disconnect rating when you have "grouped" disconnects? I would think you would sum the breakers and hope you get at least 60. Or maybe this is a group of branch circuits disconnects, so each breaker must only be 15A or more... This seems legal to me and I'm thinking of challenging it. Any suggestions? This is in Washington State.

 

[infinity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I think that his problem may be that he wants a disconnect for the second building. The six disconnect rule only applies to a service.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by infinity:
I think that his problem may be that he wants a disconnect for the second building. The six disconnect rule only applies to a service.

225.33(A)

 

[suemarkp]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I'll expand Dillon3c's answer so you know that the 6 disconnect rule also applies to circuits to separate structures:

225.33(A). The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

225.39(D) indicates the minimum rating for the disconnecting means is 60A.

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I would try to argue 408.16(B) at any point on supply side of the panelboard

might get shot down by 230.3 and 230.80

 

[suemarkp]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by bphgravity:
225.39(D) indicates the minimum rating for the disconnecting means is 60A.

So how do you determine the rating of a disconnecting means when it contains multiple (up to 6) disconnects? To me, this is the heart of the question.

 

[stew]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Seems to me the disconnecting means is the 60 amp breaker in the main panel in my opinion. I would have done this the same as you and as long as there were not more than 6 braekers in the sub then a separate disconnect should not IMO be required.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Mark,
IMO,you have room for expansion beyond six throws, and Inspector doesn't care for in...period.

There is nothing in the NEC that says this panel can't have extra space..It just can't exceed beyond the six-throws of the hand in 225.33(A).

*Quote: Shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers.

*It more than likely will see more one day and he know this,and don't like it.But he can't site you for the future.

225.39.you got that covered @ house..

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

408.16 is dealing with overcurrent protection, we are discussing disconnecting means.

It could be interpreted that each one of the six permitted disconnecting means would have to have a rating of 60A.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by dillon3c:
225.39.you got that covered @ house..

225.32 indicates the feeder breaker at the house does not qualify for the structures required disconnecting means.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

What qualifies as the disconnecting means @ the structure?

 

[websparky]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Inspector says I need a main because I don't have a single disconnect rated at 60 amps.

Tell the inspector he is wrong. The 60A breaker in the main panel is the disconnecting means for the feeder.(225.39 The feeder or branch-circuit disconnecting means... )

The 6 breakers in the panel are branch circuit OCPD and count as the 6 disconnects required in 225.33.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I don't agree. The feeder may indeed have overcurrent protection at the house, however, a disconnecting means is still required at the separate structure. The branch circuits at this new structure are now under the provisions of Article 210, as they are no longer outside branch circuits.

So in effect, a disconnecting means for the separate structure is mandated by 225.31, 225.32 tells you where it or they have to be, 225.33 tells you how many there can be, 225.39 tells you what they have to be rated. Once that is taken care of. The rest of the installations is normal and falls back to 210 or 215 for the rest of the brancg circuits or feeders that serve the structure.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by bphgravity:
however, a disconnecting means is still required at the separate structure.

Again..

What qualifies as the disconnecting means @ the structure/

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I don't understand the question? A 60A switch could be used, a 60A main could be used, but not 1 to 6 branch circuit breakers in the panel. At least that is how it reads to me.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Can I open,and disconnect the power feeding the circuits inside this separate structure,and accomplish this function, by no more than Six-Throws of the hand.

If I can, I've met requirement of 225.33(A) and

If I can,I've met the requirement of 225.32

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by dillon3c:
What qualifies as the disconnecting means @ the structure

Here's how I see it. Crosseyed, like everything else.

For all intents and purposes, somebody copied many of the requirements of Article 230 into 225. Essentially I see the code laying out requirements for outside feeders supplying a separate structure that are very similar to the service requirements.

So let's look at this:

NEC-2002 100 - Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

When 230 refers to "cutoff of the supply" it isn't shutting down the service conductors, but it is severing the structure from the still-energized service conductors.

Now, let's compare this to 225.33:

225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.

So, at our detached garage (or whatever it was), there can be no more than six handles comprising the Disconnecting Means.

The disconnecting means is the whole assembly: The box, with the breaker(s) inside of it, same as a service.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Here's a picture I made for something else, but I modified it for this discussion: The big picture

Sorry about the figure at the bottom, it was for the original, but I am too lazy to remove it.

So "A" is sized per Article 220: at worst, this detached garage for a sixplex is going to pull 30.3 amps, if the customers replace the bulbs in their keylesses with 250 W lamps (per their max rating), and every tenant opens their garage door opener at roughly the same time, with the photoeye-controlled coach lights at the face of the garage on.

So for "A", we could use a #8 UF cable to feed the garage, worth 40 amps per Table 310.16.

At the main structure, where the #8 UF cable run begins, we would need to protect the cable with a 40 amp OCPD per 240.21.

For "B" we could use a 60 amp (per 225.39) 3R enclosure listed for service use (per 225.36). I don't know of one rated for only 60, so I put a 125 amp 8 space enclosure on the drawing.

Let's say there's four circuits ("C") in this garage, a branch circuit for two bays apiece, and a branch circuit for the coach lights. There would be four handles, so we are in compliance with 225.33(A), there are no more than six handles.
Does that make sense?

The conductors feeding the garage are sized to the load. They are protected at their source according to their ampacity. The enclosure they land in would need to be sized for the load, but 225.39 steps in to require a 60 amp enclosure minimum. After that, we cannot have more than six circuits without a main handle.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I don't see where the code says the "enclosure" must be 60A minimum. 225.38(A) tells me that the disconnecting menas is the switch or circuit breaker itself, not the enclosure they are in. Hence the exception that allows a regualr snap switch.