Red Tagged, 225.39

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

How can you have one without the other? You can't have a switch without an enclosure.

Look at a definition of consist. The switch contributes to the overall composition we call the "disconnecting means", but it is not the means itself.

So if you have several switches in one enclosure, the overall completed work must be worth 60 amps. I would consider the can the switches or breakers are in to signify that.

My thought is: the reason 225 mirrors 230 is so that a structure supplied by a feeder could be easily converted to having it's own service as time goes by and conditions change.

A snap switch in a garage is not going to even come close. A 3R enclosure outside will come close, provided the NEC artificially increases the installation. Just a thought.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by georgestolz:
How can you have one without the other? You can't have a switch without an enclosure.

Sure you can. Just look at the exceptions to 404.3(A). I'm just playing devil's advocate on this one.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Hey, I'm the smart aleck. You have to play professional.

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

408.36(B) exception: "Individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equiptment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71 ."

I read the above as saying the six disconnect rule applies to power panelboards only. I'd appreciate other opinions on this.

225.32 The disconnecting means shall be nearest the point of entrance.
Additionally, Washington Administrative Code 296-46B-225: Where the disconnect is outside the building, it must be within sight and within 15 feet.

Based on Mark's description of the panel at the separate building, I would say he needed a main disconnect in addition to the branch circuits.

Buck

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by buck33k:
408.36(B) exception: "Individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equiptment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71 ."

I read the above as saying the six disconnect rule applies to power panelboards only. I'd appreciate other opinions on this.

But the six handle requirement(s) don't make that distinction. All structures must abide by six-handle rules according to 230.71 and 225.33. Those sections make no mention of power panelboards.

Further, the requirements of 408.36 have been met: Overcurrent protection has been provided "within or at the supply side of the panelboard": at the originating structure.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by buck33k:

Additionally, Washington Administrative Code 296-46B-225: Where the disconnect is outside the building, it must be within sight and within 15 feet.

Buck

I might as well be on the other end of the world from the Greater Wa.State.Chances are will not install,and don't really need concern my self with their rules.

But..Buck for the sake of the web discussion..Can you post a link,where I might read this statement, as a whole?

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Morning George,
Still having trouble with the six dissconnect rule as it applies to Marks's installation.

Further, the requirements of 408.36 have been met: Overcurrent protection has been provided "within or at the supply side of the panelboard": at the originating structure.

Your right. Overcurrent protection is provided with the five circuit breakers previously mentioned, and those breakers are at the separate structure and readily accessible as required by 225.32, but the exception to 436(B)? What does it mean? Why is it there? "Individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equiptment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71" The 60 amp breaker at the "originating structure" cannot be considered in this case as we are dealing with more than one building or structure.

Buck

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Hi Dillon,
I'm sorry but I don't think the rules specific to Wa. are on the net but I will look now to make sure. I may be mistaken.
Thanks
Buck

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

[/QUOTE] but the exception to 436(B)? What does it mean? Why is it there?

Buck [/QB][/QUOTE]

???

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Buck, that must be a typo of the key-stroke in the above..

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Dillon
I was mistaken. The Wa. rules are on its site. www.lni.wa.gov. You must follow the links to the electrical section and rules. In responce to your last post and to rephrase my questions: Is'nt the exception to 408.36(B) related to the installation in the original post?
Thanks
Buck

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Washinton State:Wac-296-46b-225
Location of Outside Feeder Disconnecting Means.

1)Outside location:
Except for the Outdoor Generator Set described in a NEC 700,701,or 702 system,where the feeder disconnecting means is installed outside a building or structure,it must be on the building or structure or within sight and within fifteen feet of the building or structure supplied.

*Humm.this may take care of this thread.

Buck,in your question, see 408.36(a) Exception No, (1)

This wouldn't be classified a Power-panelboard in this installation.

[ September 03, 2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[suemarkp]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

OK, I'll go to another level of detail. The WAC rule has two parts. My outbuilding has a PVC conduit that comes up in the middle of the floor to the panel. So the disconnect cannot be on the outside of the building. Part 2 of the WAC rule reads:

(2) Inside location: The feeder disconnecting means may be installed anywhere inside a building or structure when there is a feeder disconnecting means, located elsewhere on the premises, with overcurrent protection sized for the feeder conductors.

I have the second part, a 60A breaker located elsewhere on the premises. But what is a feeder disconnecting means? Can it be a multiple disconnect disconnecting means as permitted in NEC 225.33?

For those that want an easier link to the WAC, use this: http://www.lni.wa.gov./TradesLicensing/Electrical/LawRulePol/default.asp

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by buck33k:
Morning George,
Still having trouble with the six dissconnect rule as it applies to Marks's installation.

Further, the requirements of 408.36 have been met: Overcurrent protection has been provided "within or at the supply side of the panelboard": at the originating structure.

Your right. Overcurrent protection is provided with the five circuit breakers previously mentioned...

No--408.36 is satisfied at building #1, not the detached structure.

...but the exception to 436(B)? What does it mean? Why is it there? "Individual protection shall not be required for a power panelboard used as service equiptment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71"

Because other sections of the code say we can kill all power with 6 throws of the hand, it goes against this code. So an exception is needed. In order to allow 6 handles to energize loads, the busses must be energized.

That's the start of it all. In order to truly have overcurrent protection ahead of the entire panel serving as "Main Disconnecting Means" for the service, you'd have to protect service conductors, you'd have to have access to the utility's transformer or vault.

The 60 amp breaker at the "originating structure" cannot be considered in this case as we are dealing with more than one building or structure.

That's the difference in OCPD and disconnecting.

The panel on the detached structure is protected for overcurrent protection, 406.38 is happy. But until there is a handle on the detached structure to shut off all power, 225.33 isn't happy.

 

[suemarkp]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I"m not so sure I agree on your analysis of why 408.36(B) exists. When I read that paragraph, it was sounding like a lighting and appliance panelboard. But I see a slight difference. Normally, a power panelboard does not require individual portection. But 408.36(B) says that if the panelboard has a neutral and >10% of the breakers are 30A or less IRREGARDLESS OF WHETHER THOSE CIRCUITS CONTAIN A NEUTRAL, then you have to protect this type of power panelboard too with a main breaker. The exception would be for this class of panelboard when used as Service Equipment.

I'm not following why you think 225.33 requires a single handle. Can't there be six?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Originally posted by suemarkp:
I"m not so sure I agree on your analysis of why 408.36(B) exists.

I have to say, I'm second-guessing it now too. It all rests in what the "supply side" of a panelboard is.

I thought a main breaker is installed "within" a panelboard, and the supply would be the feeder. But the 408.36(A) exception 1 comes along and gets weird.

So is a backfed breaker "within the panelboard", and the MLO lugs are the "supply side"?

I'm not following why you think 225.33 requires a single handle. Can't there be six?

I meant "at least a handle."

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Mark
I should have asked sooner, but when you were red tagged, what code reference was cited?
Buck

Edited: Sorry, I see 225.39 in the topic heading.

[ September 04, 2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: buck33k ]

 

[buck33k]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

Just need to clear this up for myself, so here goes.
408.36 A lighting and appliance panelboard shall be protected by two main circuit breakers, etc.

exception 1: If its a sub panel, no mains, no problem.

eception 2: existing installation. (I'm assuming this is refering to a split buss SERVICE in an older residence.) No individual protection required. OK.

408.36(B) exception: Forget individual protection and use six disconnects if its a power panel board or use six disconnects in their own enclosures if its SERVICE EQUIPTMENT.

So once again, in the outbuilding originally discussed, since the panel was a small appliance branch circuit panelboard, individual protection is required if its service equiptment.

Now, is the panel at the out building considered a service?

Thanks
Buck

 

[websparky]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I don't agree. The feeder may indeed have overcurrent protection at the house, however, a disconnecting means is still required at the separate structure. The branch circuits at this new structure are now under the provisions of Article 210, as they are no longer outside branch circuits.

So in effect, a disconnecting means for the separate structure is mandated by 225.31, 225.32 tells you where it or they have to be, 225.33 tells you how many there can be, 225.39 tells you what they have to be rated. Once that is taken care of. The rest of the installations is normal and falls back to 210 or 215 for the rest of the brancg circuits or feeders that serve the structure.

Bryan,

This is really not that difficult.
(1) Over current protection for the feeder conductors is accomplished at the other structure via the 60A breaker.
(2) The six or fewer disconnects required in 225.32 and 225.33 are the six breakers in the panel at the second building.

This is the same idea as a dwelling unit with a main outside and a second panel inside.
(1) The service conductors come in to the meter and then to a main breaker in the same enclosure.
(2) The conductors that feed the second panel in the house are feeders and are protected by the main breaker.
(3) The second panel does not have to have six or fewer disconnects because it is in the same building.
(4) If there is a detached garage and it has more than 2 circuits, then it needs a panel and six or fewer disconnects. If there is going to be more than six circuits in the garage, a main breaker at the garage panel is required.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Red Tagged, 225.39

I agree with everything you have stated Dave, except the disconnecting means that is mandated by 225.31 is to be rated in accordance with 225.39. The individual branch circuit breakers in the garage panel are not outside feeder or branch circuits. So that tells me there must first be a disconnect or as many as 6 with a minimum rating as indicated in 225.39. After that, all your additional branch circuit and feeders within that structure fall under 210 and 215 respectfully.

I never had this view until I realized the last statement in the paragraph above. You cannot change what something is to suit your needs.

1. A feeder is to be installed to a separate building.

2. Overcurrent protection is provided for the feeder in the house panel.

3. A disconnecting means must be installed at that separate strcuture. There can be as many as 6. Each of these disconnecting means must meet the minimum rating specified in 225.39.

4. Branch circuits and addtional feeders may be installed in the additional structure. These are now under the provisions of 210 and 215.

The only thing that qualifies under the provision of 225 is the one branch circuit or feeder permitted by 225.30. After that, its just another structure with branch circuits.

Maybe I am off my rocker with this one?