Refrigerator(s) no longer allowed in garage - LOL

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OK.

The picture is NOT correct and does not apply to 210.8. But I was serious about the frig.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
readily accessible location.

Required!
 
jxofaltrds said:
OK.

The picture is NOT correct and does not apply to 210.8. But I was serious about the frig.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
readily accessible location.

Required!
Click to expand...
I don't question 210.8. I question what is readily accessible. Sure there is a definition in art 100 but it may have some holes in it. If I put something 6 feet above the floor it may not be readily accessible to some people but is to others. If I put a GFCI receptacle above a kitchen countertop, same thing, some may not be able to access it without some kind of aid yet others have no difficulty getting directly to it at all.
 
jxofaltrds said:
And it will be compliant until that time.
Click to expand...

You cannot control what happens after final inspection -- Code compliant work when inspected is code compliant -- I will take pictures of blanked ceiling outlets within the tub/shower zones at finals -- With required lighting in place there is no requirement for additional lighting to be installed. I will also note any fixture installed within the surround be NEC compliant.
 
mwm1752 said:
You cannot control what happens after final inspection -- Code compliant work when inspected is code compliant -- I will take pictures of blanked ceiling outlets within the tub/shower zones at finals -- With required lighting in place there is no requirement for additional lighting to be installed. I will also note any fixture installed within the surround be NEC compliant.
Click to expand...
... and non-compliance after inspection is non-compliance.
 
Sparky3141 said:
To me this begs the question of how are current GFCI receptacles doing with regards to motor loads. I've seen a few families take a vacation and come back with a defrosted freezer and lots of $ lost on meat products due to receptacle failure. But that's been a while now. I haven't done any residential for a few years. But I'm still seeing plenty of failures with water coolers which we have a bazillion of here in Hawaii. Are they getting any better?
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tom baker said:
Product standard from UL limits leakage current from appilances to .5 mA. Older friges with heat stripes in door jambs will cause GFCI to trip.

Can you clarify "But I'm still seeing plenty of failures with water coolers which we have a bazillion of here in Hawaii".GFCIs are failing, or tripping?
If tripping could it be the leakage current on the water cooler and not a GFCI issue?
Click to expand...

GeorgeB said:
HOMEOWNER here in regards to this answer (pretend engineer with industrial electro-hydraulic commissioning responsibilities); I've had 3 trips in 4 months when there were lightning storms; 1 had a motor load (GDO) but it was not involved. I'm glad they exist when they would save a life, but wish they didn't when there isn't any real danger. Perhaps <g> I need to hire someone to watch over our use of electricity?
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. The argument is the newer appliances are not prone to nuisance tripping, but then a lightning storm rolls in and all bets are off. I've seen many instances of tripped and failed GFCI units immediately after a storm went through.

It is for this reason that I am opposed to the mandatory installation of GFCI units where loss of power can cause more damage than it's worth.
 
mwm1752 said:
You cannot control what happens after final inspection -- Code compliant work when inspected is code compliant -- I will take pictures of blanked ceiling outlets within the tub/shower zones at finals -- With required lighting in place there is no requirement for additional lighting to be installed. I will also note any fixture installed within the surround be NEC compliant.
Click to expand...

Do the covers meet 410.10(D)?

(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting
track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall
be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally
and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or
shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes
the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires
located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub
or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top
of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for
damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to
shower spray.
 
kbsparky said:
Exactly my point. The argument is the newer appliances are not prone to nuisance tripping, but then a lightning storm rolls in and all bets are off. I've seen many instances of tripped and failed GFCI units immediately after a storm went through.

It is for this reason that I am opposed to the mandatory installation of GFCI units where loss of power can cause more damage than it's worth.
Click to expand...
Before they removed the "dedicated outlet" being exempt from GFCI in locations such as garages, unfinished basements, etc. I used to take advantage of the rule. But even before they removed that exemption I had several times run into a refrigerator or freezer that developed problems and was shocking people, and have come to the conclusion that a saved life is still worth more than a thawed freezer of food. All it takes is some person to cut the EGC pin off the cord for whatever reason and the risk goes up without GFCI protection. For that matter if we could assure that ECG pin on cord connectors would always remain intact, GFCI protection would maybe not have to expand to all areas that it has expanded to.
 
jxofaltrds said:
Do the covers meet 410.10(D)?

(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected
luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting
track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall
be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally
and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or
shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes
the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires
located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub
or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top
of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for
damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to
shower spray.
Click to expand...


A blank cover is not a luminaire. :)
 
infinity said:
A blank cover is not a luminaire. :)
Click to expand...

Picky picky picky. :slaphead:

The installed outlet can not be used for a switch or a receptacle. So can we call it a luminaire outlet?

I can't see signing off on a blank in a shower.

334.10
(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry
locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3)

If the cover is not rated for a damp/wet location is the NM considered to be in a NOT dry location?
 
jxofaltrds said:
Picky picky picky. :slaphead:

The installed outlet can not be used for a switch or a receptacle. So can we call it a luminaire outlet?

I can't see signing off on a blank in a shower.
Click to expand...

In my opinion under the NEC you don't get a choice in that.

334.10
(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry
locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3)

If the cover is not rated for a damp/wet location is the NM considered to be in a NOT dry location?
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
jxofaltrds said:
Picky picky picky. :slaphead:

The installed outlet can not be used for a switch or a receptacle. So can we call it a luminaire outlet?
Click to expand...

It is just a blanked outlet at the time, most anything that matches voltage and allowable current of the circuit could be connected to it. Maybe they will need a hoist in there someday:cool:
 
iwire said:
In my opinion under the NEC you don't get a choice in that.
Click to expand...

If the cover meets 314.15 I agree.

314.15 Damp or Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Using the picture attached would you let me blank the red 'outlet'?

202ecmCQAFig7.jpg
 
With a suitably gasketed "weatherproof" plate maybe. But you would have to LOTO the shower before working in it. ;)

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
jxofaltrds said:
If the cover meets 314.15 I agree.

314.15 Damp or Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Using the picture attached would you let me blank the red 'outlet'?

View attachment 9517
Click to expand...

Specifically what would prohibit a proper blank cover on the red outlet in the graphic?
 
Does each relevant code section prohibit outlets in the area or require them to be wet rated? A j-box is not necessarily an outlet if there is no utilization equipment or receptacle.
How about a weather proof receptacle for the hair dryer? With GFCI of course. An interesting mental picture! :)

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Strathead said:
This is an overstep of the NEC handbook. Had they shown a picture with a refrigerator, it may have been more appropriate, but for an installing electrician to determine where a homeowner is going to put a dresser is going too far! If this is the intent of the code writers then perhaps they should just require all GFI's be protected by breakers in the panel only.
Click to expand...

Its just a graphic, relax.... it's someone's interoperation of readily accessible.... :slaphead:
 
GoldDigger said:
Does each relevant code section prohibit outlets in the area or require them to be wet rated? A j-box is not necessarily an outlet if there is no utilization equipment or receptacle.
How about a weather proof receptacle for the hair dryer? With GFCI of course. An interesting mental picture! :)

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
If it's a box with one or more capable-of-being-energized dead-end circuits it's an outlet until configured otherwise... such as one or more circuit's both entering and exiting the [junction] box.

It doesn't matter whether it's an outlet or not, if it's in a wet or damp location the equipment must be suitably rated for such.
 
and this has something to do with the OP and Refrigerator no longer allowed in garage?
 
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