Reinstalling lights

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kellygirl

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I have a customer that used up their lighting allowances from their contract and is now trying to get lighting for free by stating that electrical contractor is required under the NEC to reinstall any lighting, receptacle, and switching outlets required under said code.

What code would apply to this?

Here's the additional issue with this, the entire space was reconfigured. No room is laid out the same so no lights, switches and/or receptacles are being put back where they were. It's all in new locations.

I would call my electrician and ask him about this but he'd be an unhappy camper if I called him this early and saw that there was few people viewing this forum now.

Thanks in advance!
 
77401 said:
Are you really serious with qustion?
I think you should have enough common sense to know the contract is a contract & the NEC is not.
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Unfortunately I am serious. Common sense does not work with this customer.
 
from what your discribing --- the owner wants the EC to provide light fixtures that were not shown on the plans in certain areas??? the EC is supposed to follow the plans and specs per his contract which is a legality. the owner/architect submits these contract documents to the ahj for review and approval. to add a fixture ",legally", it would require a re-submital of revised plans for re-approval and at this point the EC should be notified so he/she may submit a change order if necessary??? the "approved" drawings are the binding issue here. one large job i won the bid on, showed about sixty circuits feeding work stations in a large brokerage firm -- none were dedicated and showed common neutrals.... at the jobsite meeting befire we started the job, i approached the electrical engineer and began explaining what he had shown on his plans. two years later and after too many computer equipment problems, i was called by the firm to attend a meeting with this same engineer. i had my as built and contract drawings with me. he started the meeting explaining to the owner that "I" had mis-wired the work stations and that all the circuits should have been dedicated!!!! then he rolled out a set of plans --- with the original date that matched my plans --- and guess what ---------------- they were changed to dedicated circuits!!! then i rolled my plans out------ he had the guts to tell the owner he wanted MY plans. i explained that he would get nothing from me -- and if the owner wanted a copy, and agreed to pay for them, i would provide them a copy!!! how low can you go. we ended up changing, systematically, all the circuits to dedicated -- we had oversized the home runs knowing this would probibly be a problem. it was music to my ears a few years later when i heard his firm was no longer in business!!!! and it is a major engineering firm!
 
kellygirl said:
I have a customer that used up their lighting allowances from their contract and is now trying to get lighting for free by stating that electrical contractor is required under the NEC to reinstall any lighting, receptacle, and switching outlets required under said code.
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"Required to install" is not the same as "required to provide" to me. If they used up the allowance, you've satisfied the "provide" portion of your contract.

Tell the customer you'll be happy to install any "required" fixtures they provide.
 
The only way they could really get ay the EC is if it was a design build job where the EC did the design and failed to put fixtures or recepticals that are required by code (i.e. exit cooridors, show windows) however if it is not design build and there are problem with the original design that has been approved by a city building department and there are issues with the code then I feel it is up to the owner to flip the bill for that. The whole thing sounds kinda fishy unless there is more we are not being told tell your EC to change his phone number and walk away. Let someone else have the headache (unless that somebody would be you ) :)
 
Just because there were approved plans doesnt actually mean that if installed as per plan that it will pass a final inspection,that is needed for a C.O.I have dealt with this same issue time after time.Now th OP says reinstall fixtures were they there prior to the work and in the contract to be reinstalled ??? Or were they new fixtures that the lighting allotment fell short of $$$$ to supply.As far as the NEC issue goes there has to be a means to illuminate an area a switched receptacle does that and no light has to be installed at the final.There has to be a switch but the location can be anywhere.
Sounds like you have a real winner with this one and I for one would stand my ground and say bring it on :)
 
This will all come down to what the EC agreed to in the contract with you as the GC.Your agrement and contract with owner is seperate issue.You gave them an allowance and they went over.That to me means they picked high end stuff and now are short of funds to buy the rest.Many items are permitted to be blanked.Read your contracts then get back to us and perhaps we can help better.
 
Kelly

Is this the same customer you posted about in this link?

If so, it sounds to me as if this customer of yours is bound and determined to get you or your EC to give her some free fixtures.

When I write up our contracts, I spell our EXACTLY how many fixtures, receptacles, and switches we will provide. It comes in handy for change orders.

Recently, we were doing a remodel where the HO put a pot of coffee on for us each morning and made muffins once and had doughnuts another time. One day she asked if we could add a receptacle by her phone phone jack. My guys installed it without even asking me if it was okay - and it was! :D
 
Go out and buy a bunch of "keyless" fixtures, and install them. For less than a buck apiece, you have satisfied the Code.

Then get the customer to pay in advance for your time and trouble to change them to the fixtures they really want.

Or just final out the job with all them bare-bulb keylesses in there, and let `em weep!
 
Minuteman said:
Is this the same customer you posted about
http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=62688"
in this link?
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Wow...that was a some time ago - I forgot my responses!

But, I still stand by them :)

Is this the same job?
 
Yep it's them, lol. I could go one for days about what they are trying to get for free, obviously we had to go to court and they sent us to arbitration.

The electrician that they ultimately used to finish is of the opinion that because there were lights existing in the downstairs, regardless of the allowance, we should have to put them back in. My arguement is that no light is going back where it was. The one side of the house had cathedral ceilings with lights and fans installed, but that came down to 8' height due to the add-a-level going over the top of that area and in addition the configuration of the rooms was completely changed. If we had put the light in the kitchen back where it was the box would be basically floating in the hallway of the second floor never mind it would practically be in the cabinets in the kitchen! It has been a nightmare.

And like I said this electrician is saying according to the NEC we should have to put them back and really if they were going back in the EXACT SAME SPOTS, then maybe I could see it, but they are not remotely in the same spots.

Minuteman, the ONLY good thing to come out of this was it was great lesson. I now breakdown down the electric room by room, with each individual item. It makes my contract much longer BUT IT'S WORTH IT!
 
kbsparky said:
Go out and buy a bunch of "keyless" fixtures, and install them. For less than a buck apiece, you have satisfied the Code.

Then get the customer to pay in advance for your time and trouble to change them to the fixtures they really want.

Or just final out the job with all them bare-bulb keylesses in there, and let `em weep!
Click to expand...

Where were you last year!! ;)
 
the same peple???

the same peple???

are you saying you been dealing with these people for a year ... geez ... I'd like to hear the final outcome ... good luck ... m
 
mario said:
are you saying you been dealing with these people for a year ... geez ... I'd like to hear the final outcome ... good luck ... m
Click to expand...

Mario we went to court and got sent to arbitration. So we do what were told and go, mind you all along we have been doing everything we can to resolve this, but it comes down is they wanted someone other than themselves to pay for this addition.

Anyway, so we agree to BINDING arbitration, we go through the process and the arbitrator orders that they get $11075 and we get $11000. It was pretty much a slap in the face to them so low and behold they decide to fight the binding arbitration. So now the electric thing is now back up in my head because I just don't see how there can be a code about putting the lights back if you completely reconfigure the space and nothing is going back where it was.

Hopefully in a couple weeks it will be over. Honestly though, I really think that they will never stop.
 
Kelly

There is a minimum code requirement for lighting found in 210.70 which says that kitchens and baths have to have a switched fixture each and basically everywhere else has to have a fixture. About the only exception is living areas and bedrooms, which can have switched receptacles that a lamp can plug into.

(I would post the exact quote for you if I could, but I know somebody will right along after me that can)

So follow kbsparkey's advice!
 
Your only required in most places to supply an outlet with exception of kitchen,bath,hall.An outlet is the box thats there with a blank.I too would just buy them keyless fixtures and call the final.They sound like little kids sent to the store with $1 to buy candy and picked out more than a dollars worth.Whats the going price of a 38 bullet?
 
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