Removing Panel Cover

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Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I would only ask the inspector one thing.

How do you troubleshoot electrical problems with the power off?
 
cschmid

cschmid

Senior Member
Location
Northern cold country
now we are in an area that is interesting..because nfpa 70e is enforced by osha and normally only after an accident. Now we have a electrical inspector enforcing nfpa 70e..first I want to know who called the inspector? why they felt the need or if this was just dumb luck to walk into this situation..I have met many inspectors electrical and osha, and not any one of them were out to be trouble makers. they either happened on to or were sent to bad situations.


was that good sucking up..:)


This area about nfpa 70e is interesting can a see a vote for thoughs whos employeers train on nfpa 70e. Mine does not..

after learning about it several years ago I bought my first nfpa 70e and the most recent one I own is the 2004 and I believe it is upgraded since then. I also own the 2007 NESC handbook and it is costly trying to keep up with the regulations. How can any one afford to keep up with all the regulations? any one got a cheaper way..
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Dave58er said:
...........However if I walked up on some clowns with no clue of what they were getting into I would come down hard! :mad:



As far as experience goes the way I here it is;
There are old electricians. There are dumb electricians. There are no old dumb electricians. ;)
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You may save a life.....

The saying I have always heard is; There is old electricians, and there are bold electricians, but there is no old bold electricians!:)
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
davelectric said:
You don't have to be sorry, but I'm not wrong, you just don't agree with me. What I said is, it's a combination of experience and training. Did you consider the reason you didn't have an accident being cut off 2 times is because of all your years of good driving habits and experience? Or according to your theory, you should take some defensive driving classes. No where did I mention that I have not read NFPA 70E, so why do you keep saying that, its not true. If you were to read NEC 110.6 (b) type of training: it shall be a classroom or on the job type, or a combination of the two. It does not say if you take specific classes or read NFPA 70E you are qualified.
Who do you want me to send to your house for electrical repair a crew of all 5-year apprentices or crew of a journeyman and an apprentice? They both have had the same training and education but the journeyman has experience. Isn't that why we pay him more? Experience!!
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My bad, that was HWS that said he had not read it. But here are the requirements from 70E (OSHA mirrors it) to be considered a qualified person.

According to the NFPA 70E, a “Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present with respect to that equipment or work method.

Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.

An employee that is undergoing on the job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated the ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.

In addition, to be permitted to work within the limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts the person shall be trained in all of the following:

Qualified employees shall be trained and competent in:

The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed live parts from other parts of electric equipment

The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed live parts

The minimum approach distances specified in this section corresponding to the voltages to which the qualified employee will be exposed, and,

The decision making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely (No way you can do this without the proper 70E training)


A few notes to add to the 70E definition.
Only the employer can deem an employee qualified after they have had the proper training and have demonstrated profinency using the skills and method learned.
There is no such thing as NFPA 70E certification, going to a training course does not make an employee qualified.
The most misunderstood part of the "qualified" term is that it is all emcompassing, you are "qualified" to work on a specific type or piece of equipment.
Neither a J-card, a masters license, or an engineering degree make you a "qualified person"
The word "electrician" is not anywhere in the definition of a "qualified person" meaning these rules apply to all employees and you dont have to be an electrician to be "qualified"
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
zog said:
Neither a J-card, a masters license, or an engineering degree make you a "qualified person"
The word "electrician" is not anywhere in the definition of a "qualified person" meaning these rules apply to all employees and you dont have to be an electrician to be "qualified"
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There is an exception to that, If I remember correctly, Utah is the only state license that is considered a qualified person. Apparently they have additional testing.:)
 
D

davelectric

Member
zog said:
Only the employer can deem an employee qualified after they have had the proper training and have demonstrated profinency using the skills and method learned.
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Zog it sounds like we are on the same page now. I agree with you totally. Lets take it one step farther " I am the employer". I am self-employed and deem myself qualified after 37 years.
I also agree with the comment in regards to seeing a couple clowns with their fingers in the panels. I would also come down hard. All we were doing is tracing some wires with no exposed parts, or body parts in the panel or trough. I just think it is ridiculous to shutdown a plant in order to take a panel cover off. I believe they have gone too far.
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Dave58er said:
I don't know. :confused:

Typically when I'm troubleshooting I just keep putting in bigger and bigger fuses until I can see where the smoke is coming from! :grin:
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LOL Dave... I was talking with a crew from our local POCO one time, and they were wondering why I didn't get a job with them because of my knowledge of what they were doing.

I told them two reasons, mainly, One I am afraid of heights (rules out climbing poles and bucket trucks) and secondly, I would be inclined to troubleshoot a line by putting in a solid link in place of a fuse to see what burns.

The foreman said the second wasn't a big deal, as sometimes that is literally what they do to find a stubborn problem.:grin:
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
davelectric said:
Zog it sounds like we are on the same page now. I agree with you totally. Lets take it one step farther " I am the employer". I am self-employed and deem myself qualified after 37 years.
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You can't just wave your magic wand and deem your self qualified, you need to meet the training requirements at a minimum.

Do you know what PPE is required to perform this task?
Do you own the PPE required to do this task?

davelectric said:
All we were doing is tracing some wires with no exposed parts, or body parts in the panel or trough. I just think it is ridiculous to shutdown a plant in order to take a panel cover off. I believe they have gone too far.
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Yes they have, T/S is allowed IF you have the right PPE, did you?
 
Dave58er

Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
mxslick said:
The foreman said the second wasn't a big deal, as sometimes that is literally what they do to find a stubborn problem.:grin:
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That seems crazy to me but, guess as long as my lights stay on I'm happy. :)

I've heard the same from in house electricians at some of the car plants around here. :roll:
 
mxslick

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Dave58er said:
That seems crazy to me but, guess as long as my lights stay on I'm happy. :)

I've heard the same from in house electricians at some of the car plants around here. :roll:
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It is crazy but a lot of fun to watch. :grin: I saw it done just once, to reveal a bad lightning arrestor. Every time they re-fused the circuit, it would hold long enough for the crew to put their tools away, then BOOM!! Out goes the fuse. Replaced, they waited a few minutes, then BOOM again. Foreman says get the link blade. They install it, and while one crewmember held the blade closed (as fault current could blow it open they said) we all waited..a few monments later, very loud arcing sound, the lines started dancing, and the faulty arrestor several spans away blew up. Replaced the bad arrestor, replaced the fuse and all was well. The foreman said that proceedure has backfired a few times, one time they burned down several spans of primary.

Not surprised by the car plant sparkies doing it as they are under severe pressure to keep the line moving.

Back on topic, I am also of the school that the inspector overreacted, but only if the worker was wearing PPE. If no PPE, then the inspector did the right thing.

I seem to recall from other similar threads that the consensus was that to even remove a deadfront, where the arc flash hazard is specified, that PPE suitable for the hazard level MUST be worn, right? If no specific hazard level is specified or identified, it is not mandatory but considered a good practice...

Me personally, I would now wear PPE every time no matter what, I have seen too many bad things happen to not do so. Back some years ago, I wasn't so smart and have been very lucky..I 've experienced four arc flashes that could have been very serious, only by dumb luck did I avoid injury or worse.
 
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