replace wire after lightning strike?

[pasqual56]

My water well (500' deep - submersible) pump was recently replaced after a lightning strike/surge and was replaced by a licensed contractor. The old motor was evaluated by a company selected by the insurance company. Everyone agrees the motor was struck by a strike/surge. The evaluator stated that the 500" of wiring could have reused even though they did not see the wire.

The well contractor says they always replace the wire when a strike occurs. The insurance company says it should have been reused because they were told that by the evaluator. Does a code apply here or rather what is "good practice"?

i would appreciate any input.

 

[charlie b]

We have to tread carefully here. Forum rules prohibit us from giving information or assistance that is intended to be used to support one side or the other in a legal dispute. I will try to give you what little information I can. Please understand that neither the owner of this forum nor any of its members accept any responsibility for the accuracy of opinions posted hereon, and we do not grant our permission to use our opinions to defend your position with the insurance company.

Regrettably, the National Electrical Code is not going to provide an answer either way. The NEC is all about installing equipment, not about repairing equipment. I will say, however, that for an ?evaluator? to declare something is in safe condition for reuse, without having seen the material or otherwise conducted an investigation, is, in my view, appalling. I cannot tell you that the wire was, or was not damaged by the lightning strike. If you handed me the wire, I could subject it to tests. More to the point, if we go back in time (i.e., before the wire was replaced), and if you ask me if I thought the wire should be replaced, I would need to see it, visually inspect it (as best as may be done, for I suspect most of it was in a conduit), and perform a set of tests on it. The cost of that process, including the cost of an engineer?s report, would likely be higher than the cost of replacing the wire. Even today, the cost of having someone inspect and test the wire might be higher than the cost of replacing the wire. That will probably not be possible anyway, for I would guess that your contractor has taken custody of the old wire, and may have sold it for scrap by now.

For what it may be worth, I think the contractor did the right thing.

 

[ghostbuster]

When there is lots of lighning activity,pumps in wells and lakes get "hit"all the time.


WHY


This wiring system provides the lowest impedance to a low ohmic ground source(well or lake water).This wiring system has been used as a superhighway for the lightning ground currents.(probably with very high momentary currents and voltages.)


NO QUESTION,REPLACE THE WIRING!

 

[76nemo]

Oh my.

Oh my.

My last pull was 210', and the thought of it alone hurts my back. I hope he had a healthy helper or a crank!!!!!!

 

[charlie tuna]

you will notice that when people talk about lightning there is no clean cut description of two strikes being alike!! and we in the trade refer to it as being "unpredictable" !! i have probably repaired 30 different jobs damaged by lightning --each is different and there is no law to how it travels and the path many times doesn't even make sense to me thinking as an electrician?? your insurance company is grasping at straws -- it's a crap shoot -- weather the feeder cable was damaged or not!! i would get a letter from the person who replaced the cable and have him state that in his perfessional opinion the cabled needed to be replaced since it carried a current and voltage beyond it's rated maximums as discribed in the national electric code. myself (and probably your insurance salesman too), if it was my well, i would replace the cable without question and i know copper is very expensive. the labor involved and the possible damage to the new pump that this damaged cable can cause is not worth the savings in reusing the original wire. most of the lightning damage i have worked on requires letters and/or invoices with explanations of what was found. and i have never come across an insurance investigator that knew what he was looking at !!!

ps: i always install a good surge supressor across the breaker feeding a well.

 

[weressl]

My water well (500' deep - submersible) pump was recently replaced after a lightning strike/surge and was replaced by a licensed contractor. The old motor was evaluated by a company selected by the insurance company. Everyone agrees the motor was struck by a strike/surge. The evaluator stated that the 500" of wiring could have reused even though they did not see the wire.

The well contractor says they always replace the wire when a strike occurs. The insurance company says it should have been reused because they were told that by the evaluator. Does a code apply here or rather what is "good practice"?

i would appreciate any input.

Request that the evaluator test the wire and furnish a report. Perhaps when they picked up the motor they tested the wire? Their could be alkso presuming - rightly - that only the weakest point has blown out. When you look at a "magnet wire" and compare the baked-on enamel insulation thickness to and THHN insulation thickness, it is a fair assumption, but with lightning no assumption should be made. STRANGE phenomena. I would test the wire before it is returned to service. 500V or 1000V megger depending on the service voltage.

 

[wireman71]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say any reasonably priced surge protector is not going to do anything for a lighting strike. Those little things people put in there panels might help for surges but a full on lighting strike? I'm skeptical of that.

 

[mayanees]

Condition of the wire...

Condition of the wire...

I don't think I'd have that much of a problem with letting the insurance company reuse the existing wire - since you'd be able to tell right away whether or not it was fried - upon energization of the well.
If it held, then the wire is okay. Granted the insulation may have been stressed, or hi-potted, but if the insulation broke down, then it would likely trip the breaker upon energization, and at that point, they would need to fund the replacement.
JM

 

[weressl]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say any reasonably priced surge protector is not going to do anything for a lighting strike. Those little things people put in there panels might help for surges but a full on lighting strike? I'm skeptical of that.

You're right; a full strike pretty much fry anything.

However a full strike is about as rare as a white elephant. The magnitude of induced lighting surges experienced in a give area can be plotted as a declining curve against frequency. Small induced surges occur all the time from distant POCO switching to lightning strikes. The larger the surge the lesser is the probability of experience. Accordingly you can buy different level of surge protectors and they are classified by IEEE based on the magnitude of surge energy they expect to intercept succesfuly. Also remember that surge protectors 'wear out', they only can take so many hits. The higher the energy of the 'hits', the quicker will they fail.

 

[charlie tuna]

there's not much that can handle a direct lightning strike-- i have seen a chunk of concrete the size of a volkswagon knocked off the corner of a building --and this building had a lightning protection system installed on it!! on a typical residence with a well pump -- i always recommend (as many of the water system suppliers in this area) the installation of a surge suppressor across the pump feeder circuit. now i don't think it totally protects the pump, and certainly not from a direct hit, but it reduces the chances of pump failures due to lightning in the area. lightning is unpredictable and from what i have seen, the high voltage is seeking the lowest resistance path to ground-- and there are times there could be many paths and if this surge suppressor redirects this voltage it could save the pump????????????????????

the idea of re-installing the existing cable on a 500 foot deep well to see if it holds is crazy. and because it holds the first week means very little -- two months later the pump fails because of voltage drop due to the condition of the copper wire within the feeder cable -- who pays then???

 

[weressl]

there's not much that can handle a direct lightning strike-- i have seen a chunk of concrete the size of a volkswagon knocked off the corner of a building --and this building had a lightning protection system installed on it!! on a typical residence with a well pump -- i always recommend (as many of the water system suppliers in this area) the installation of a surge suppressor across the pump feeder circuit. now i don't think it totally protects the pump, and certainly not from a direct hit, but it reduces the chances of pump failures due to lightning in the area. lightning is unpredictable and from what i have seen, the high voltage is seeking the lowest resistance path to ground-- and there are times there could be many paths and if this surge suppressor redirects this voltage it could save the pump????????????????????

the idea of re-installing the existing cable on a 500 foot deep well to see if it holds is crazy. and because it holds the first week means very little -- two months later the pump fails because of voltage drop due to the condition of the copper wire within the feeder cable -- who pays then???

Charlie,

"two months later the pump fails because of voltage drop due to the condition of the copper wire within the feeder cable"

Could you elaborate on this?

 

[charlie tuna]

i have seen copper wire damaged from lightning that did not look nor bend like copper. one underground feeder was feeding a hydraulic elevator and the lightning came down a coconut tree--jumped onto the rigid conduit raceway feeding a spot light and traveled underground until it got close to the elevator feeder which was rigid conduit--jumped on the elevator feeder and ran back into the house service panel and exploded in the meter socket--blew it out of the can---meter can cover and locking ring was still on the base of the meter lying on the floor!! we then attempted to remove the three phase wire from the elevator feeder and it was originally like #4 thwn stranded copper and the little bit we got out was welded together like a solid conductor and stiff like it was a heavy ceiling wire--like steel. the insulation was gone off all three conductors. now these conductors were only damaged from the point where the lighting raceway crossed the elevator feeded raceway back to the service..... i have seen it do the same thing to an rg-6 coax cable -- the center core wire was turned black and stiff like tie wire!

 

[weressl]

i have seen copper wire damaged from lightning that did not look nor bend like copper. one underground feeder was feeding a hydraulic elevator and the lightning came down a coconut tree--jumped onto the rigid conduit raceway feeding a spot light and traveled underground until it got close to the elevator feeder which was rigid conduit--jumped on the elevator feeder and ran back into the house service panel and exploded in the meter socket--blew it out of the can---meter can cover and locking ring was still on the base of the meter lying on the floor!! we then attempted to remove the three phase wire from the elevator feeder and it was originally like #4 thwn stranded copper and the little bit we got out was welded together like a solid conductor and stiff like it was a heavy ceiling wire--like steel. the insulation was gone off all three conductors. now these conductors were only damaged from the point where the lighting raceway crossed the elevator feeded raceway back to the service..... i have seen it do the same thing to an rg-6 coax cable -- the center core wire was turned black and stiff like tie wire!

The point is that the feeder you describe would not have initially worked and then failed in two months.

If you test the wire for insulation resistance and ohmic value of each conductors then it is possible to put it back in service with confidence.

 

[charlie tuna]

if you see with your eyes that the insulation is damaged but not to the extent that it fails a meggar test and also as you are removing this feeder there are sections of the cable that feel's stiff, like the conductor has internal damage would you re-use it even though it reads continuity and you were paying for a new pump. if the material make up of the feeder cable has changed the current carrying capabilities of the pump's feeder cable would you chance damaging this new pump knowing that this feeder cable carried enough overcurrent to damage the pump's wind. maybe we did wrong by not ringing out the damaged rg-6 coax cable??? it might have worked???

 

[weressl]

if you see with your eyes that the insulation is damaged but not to the extent that it fails a meggar test and also as you are removing this feeder there are sections of the cable that feel's stiff, like the conductor has internal damage would you re-use it even though it reads continuity and you were paying for a new pump. if the material make up of the feeder cable has changed the current carrying capabilities of the pump's feeder cable would you chance damaging this new pump knowing that this feeder cable carried enough overcurrent to damage the pump's wind. maybe we did wrong by not ringing out the damaged rg-6 coax cable??? it might have worked???

Charlie,

You keep changing the base promise of the argument.

"see with your eyes that the insulation is damaged"

"feel's stiff, like the conductor has internal damage"

You are introducing subjective facts into an argument that supposes objectivity.

 

[charlie tuna]

what i am saying is when dealing with lightning damage -- there are no rules since each case is different. you are attempting to justify an insurance company's claim to refuse payment on a set of wires that were subjected to questionable voltage and questionable current flow, but UNQUESTIONABLE sufficient enough to destroy
the field windings of the submersible well pump. what i am saying, in my professional opinion and based on lightning damage i have dealt with over my 48 years in the industry, i would recommend replacement of the feeder cable. and yes, even if it rang out properly and it megged out properly. you,i or the insurance company cannot determine how much voltage or current traveled through this cable, only that it did carry enough to burn up the field windings of the motor. i wouldn't even consider megging this cable-- because it really doesn't prove the condition of the conductor and may not really tell you the actual condition of the insulation. this cable must be waterproof and flexible. some movement may change the meggar reading from good to bad--same with water.................

i do not believe in excessive spending on insurance claims but this issue is best for both the insurance company and the homeowner --- in my professional opinion. one of the last insurance jobs i did on a major explosion to a large bank building, i had a disagreement with square d on the building's replacement switchgear. this amounted to $63,000+ dollars. as i fought square d, the insurance company told me to go ahead and pay them! the mistake was due to square d's field representative and i continued my fight and they dropped the figure down to $3,600. dollars. this saved the insurance compant almost $60,000. !

 

[weressl]

what i am saying is when dealing with lightning damage -- there are no rules since each case is different. you are attempting to justify an insurance company's claim to refuse payment on a set of wires that were subjected to questionable voltage and questionable current flow, but UNQUESTIONABLE sufficient enough to destroy
the field windings of the submersible well pump. what i am saying, in my professional opinion and based on lightning damage i have dealt with over my 48 years in the industry, i would recommend replacement of the feeder cable. and yes, even if it rang out properly and it megged out properly. you,i or the insurance company cannot determine how much voltage or current traveled through this cable, only that it did carry enough to burn up the field windings of the motor. i wouldn't even consider megging this cable-- because it really doesn't prove the condition of the conductor and may not really tell you the actual condition of the insulation. this cable must be waterproof and flexible. some movement may change the meggar reading from good to bad--same with water.................

i do not believe in excessive spending on insurance claims but this issue is best for both the insurance company and the homeowner --- in my professional opinion. one of the last insurance jobs i did on a major explosion to a large bank building, i had a disagreement with square d on the building's replacement switchgear. this amounted to $63,000+ dollars. as i fought square d, the insurance company told me to go ahead and pay them! the mistake was due to square d's field representative and i continued my fight and they dropped the figure down to $3,600. dollars. this saved the insurance compant almost $60,000. !

Charlie,

Do you think things should be done because you say so?

In court, expert witnesses must substantiate their "expert" status with education credentials, professional experience, peer opinion. Then, and only then, are they allowed to present the scientific data supporting their "opinion".

If you claim that you are unwilling to accept test data that is used to esteblish the soundness of the initial, new installation, then you must offer some sort of alternative that establishes the validity of your claim. (I even offered you resistance testing of the conductors that is not done normally.)

 

[SegDog]

"reasonable and prudent person"

"reasonable and prudent person"

Hello,

The disposition of the conductors should have been decided up-front. This is an insurance claim. The conductors are owned by the property owner, unless the insurance company takes claim. One thing for-sure, they don't belong to the electrician. If either party desires the electrician to properly dispose-of and receipt the salvage, then they can arrange to pay the electrician his customary fee for such extra work. Fair and square.

 

[mivey]

As for trying to determine if lightning or POCO or something else was the culprit, I have used a report from here:

http://www.weatherforensics.com/lightning/FAQ2.php

It is not definitive, but can validate that lighting was in the area. It may even document the exact strike that caused the damage.

 

[quogueelectric]

I have been called as an expert witness under my protest while I was in court on annother case I wispered my opinion to an attorney sitting next to me he jumped up and told the judge what I said and the court ordered me to testify