replace wire after lightning strike?

[charlie tuna]

weress!,
point blank on you question if something should be replaced because i say so?

if you are questioning me about my professional trade experience i will look you in the eye and tell you yes!!!
i am looking at this situation about the lightning damaged well pump at a typical house with the depth somewhere around 200 + feet. standing talking to the owner of this house that called me after a storm containing lightning disrupted his everyday lifestyle of having running water to clean his dishes-bathe-clean his clothes and basic toilet operations. the insurance agent is in his office figuring out his cash receipts from last week waiting for his phone to ring. the home owner can only tell me that before the lightning storm he had water and after this lightning storm he didn't ???? the well contractor has already pulled the pump and has determined "it's fried!".. i check the installation, main ground conductor, feeder panel, circuit breaker feeding the pump, disconnect switch, pressure switch and find no physical damage, the pumps feeder cable is laying on the ground where the well contractor has coiled it as he removed the pump. it's nasty looking from being in the well for ten years. i turn the disconnect "off" and energize the system and check the line side of the disconnect for proper power. then i would check the pressure switch after isolating the feeder cable. if all this checked out i would figure -- like i stated before that the pump went out on a lightning surge. my recommendation would be to replace the feeder cable along with the pump. i find it a waste of time to meggar this cable or read it's resistance since it is portable and could change from "bad to good" during it's re-installation. i would recommend the cable to be replaced since it carried excessive voltage and current during the damage to the pump. i would expect the homeowner to follow my recommendation. if he didn't, i would explain that he would be taking a chance that the cable could be damaged and may not work or could fail in the near future and could possibly damage his newly installed pump?? i would write him an invoice covering the work i preformed plus materials and a statement of what i found and my recommendation. questions normally arise "after the fact" in matters like this and i have never had any problems concerning my recommendations.

we are mainly commercial electrical contractors and specialize in infrared scanning and are certified infrared thermographers. many times we are faced with problems of explaining to a building office manager that he has a major problem inside a perfectly normal looking section of bus duct. he can't see the problem -- he can't feel the increase in heat that our camera can -- he must trust our judgment that there is a internal problem. we can only guess at the time frame he has to react to replace this bus duct. sometimes he has time to order new parts and sometimes it requires emergency operations to jump out the damaged area. it gets a little "hairy" when you explain that you want someone to order $60,000 in parts without seeing the internal damage. how can i do this???? possible the bus duct could last five days or five years?? from my professional knowledge i am guessing what is best for the customer-- thats why they called me!!!

 

[quogueelectric]

How is a wellpoint pump wire installed anyway that deep? Here on long island you can hit water at 5 ft. How is the cable supported just hang it 500' down the hole with no support?? btw I vote for replace or at the least pull it out for a visual inspection along with a megger check. Stranded wire should not be melted to solid at any point.

 

[weressl]

weress!,
point blank on you question if something should be replaced because i say so?

if you are questioning me about my professional trade experience i will look you in the eye and tell you yes!!!
i am looking at this situation about the lightning damaged well pump at a typical house with the depth somewhere around 200 + feet. standing talking to the owner of this house that called me after a storm containing lightning disrupted his everyday lifestyle of having running water to clean his dishes-bathe-clean his clothes and basic toilet operations. the insurance agent is in his office figuring out his cash receipts from last week waiting for his phone to ring. the home owner can only tell me that before the lightning storm he had water and after this lightning storm he didn't ???? the well contractor has already pulled the pump and has determined "it's fried!".. i check the installation, main ground conductor, feeder panel, circuit breaker feeding the pump, disconnect switch, pressure switch and find no physical damage, the pumps feeder cable is laying on the ground where the well contractor has coiled it as he removed the pump. it's nasty looking from being in the well for ten years. i turn the disconnect "off" and energize the system and check the line side of the disconnect for proper power. then i would check the pressure switch after isolating the feeder cable. if all this checked out i would figure -- like i stated before that the pump went out on a lightning surge. my recommendation would be to replace the feeder cable along with the pump. i find it a waste of time to meggar this cable or read it's resistance since it is portable and could change from "bad to good" during it's re-installation. i would recommend the cable to be replaced since it carried excessive voltage and current during the damage to the pump. i would expect the homeowner to follow my recommendation. if he didn't, i would explain that he would be taking a chance that the cable could be damaged and may not work or could fail in the near future and could possibly damage his newly installed pump?? i would write him an invoice covering the work i preformed plus materials and a statement of what i found and my recommendation. questions normally arise "after the fact" in matters like this and i have never had any problems concerning my recommendations.

we are mainly commercial electrical contractors and specialize in infrared scanning and are certified infrared thermographers. many times we are faced with problems of explaining to a building office manager that he has a major problem inside a perfectly normal looking section of bus duct. he can't see the problem -- he can't feel the increase in heat that our camera can -- he must trust our judgment that there is a internal problem. we can only guess at the time frame he has to react to replace this bus duct. sometimes he has time to order new parts and sometimes it requires emergency operations to jump out the damaged area. it gets a little "hairy" when you explain that you want someone to order $60,000 in parts without seeing the internal damage. how can i do this???? possible the bus duct could last five days or five years?? from my professional knowledge i am guessing what is best for the customer-- thats why they called me!!!

You have offered not an IOTA of technical or scientific EVIDENCE of why you would do what you do. "Fryed' is not an accepted scientific term albeit it is used in the vernacular.

I would sue you for professional malpractice and would win.

 

[charlie tuna]

yes there is a difference between "scientific terms" and basic "common sense" and that is where you and i differ. there are other things that enter into the picture which a "scientist" like you can't understand in recommending the feeder cable be replaced. and my term "fried" which you scientifically changed to "fryed" may not be a "scientific term" but it probably is a term the homeowner understood and probably agreed upon by the well contractor. or maybe i should have told the homeowner "his field windings on his submersible induction motor had insulation breakdown caused by a high frequency voltage surge which surpassed the impedance designed in the construction of the coils allowing an excessive amount of current to flow which caused the coil to melt".

the basic problem in our discussion is you are a scientist and i'm just a dumb a$$ electrician! but to sue somebody, it usually requires a jury or group of average minded people to conclude who is right and who is wrong. i will take my case to the average person. you see, i am not talking "scientific terms" -- i am talking about lightning --- throw "science" out the window when it comes to lightning------thats why we (in the trade - "not in the laboratory" ) refer to it as "UNPREDICTABLE".

 

[zbang]

Lemme toss in another angle- PM. When a machine is out of service for new tooling, do you lube & check it now or wait for the next date on the calendar? Most places will do whatever they can if the machine is already down.

So, what's the average life expectancy of a pump and the pump cable? 5yrs? 20yrs? 50yrs? (I really don't know, but assume it'll vary for different parts of the country.) If we're talking about a 20 year old pump and cable, and they've only expected to last 25 years, I'd recommend to the HO that the cable be replaced with the pump -now- since it's already out of the ground and they're getting a new pump. Insurance might not cover it all, but IME they don't usually cover leaking water heaters, either. (Do you wait for the bottom to fall out or the heater or schedule a replacement?)

I'm of the opinion that the marginal cost of replacement is less that the possibility of failure. All a megger test will tell you is that it's OK now. Until you drop it back down the hole and megger it again, you don't know if it's still OK, and you don't know how much longer it'll be OK.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[quogueelectric]

yes there is a difference between "scientific terms" and basic "common sense" and that is where you and i differ. there are other things that enter into the picture which a "scientist" like you can't understand in recommending the feeder cable be replaced. and my term "fried" which you scientifically changed to "fryed" may not be a "scientific term" but it probably is a term the homeowner understood and probably agreed upon by the well contractor. or maybe i should have told the homeowner "his field windings on his submersible induction motor had insulation breakdown caused by a high frequency voltage surge which surpassed the impedance designed in the construction of the coils allowing an excessive amount of current to flow which caused the coil to melt".

the basic problem in our discussion is you are a scientist and i'm just a dumb a$$ electrician! but to sue somebody, it usually requires a jury or group of average minded people to conclude who is right and who is wrong. i will take my case to the average person. you see, i am not talking "scientific terms" -- i am talking about lightning --- throw "science" out the window when it comes to lightning------thats why we (in the trade - "not in the laboratory" ) refer to it as "UNPREDICTABLE".

Dont sweat it if I am on your jury. He has obviously never seen a real life lightning strike to say something like this. I have seen it and have no idea why you think the dielectric of a cable that just delivered a fatal blow to a pump motor 500' in the ground hasnt been compromised is beyond me.

 

[weressl]

Lemme toss in another angle- PM. When a machine is out of service for new tooling, do you lube & check it now or wait for the next date on the calendar? Most places will do whatever they can if the machine is already down.

So, what's the average life expectancy of a pump and the pump cable? 5yrs? 20yrs? 50yrs? (I really don't know, but assume it'll vary for different parts of the country.) If we're talking about a 20 year old pump and cable, and they've only expected to last 25 years, I'd recommend to the HO that the cable be replaced with the pump -now- since it's already out of the ground and they're getting a new pump. Insurance might not cover it all, but IME they don't usually cover leaking water heaters, either. (Do you wait for the bottom to fall out or the heater or schedule a replacement?)

I'm of the opinion that the marginal cost of replacement is less that the possibility of failure. All a megger test will tell you is that it's OK now. Until you drop it back down the hole and megger it again, you don't know if it's still OK, and you don't know how much longer it'll be OK.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

I am not arguing that the replacement of the cable is not a sensible choice, only that you should not expect to have the insurance company pay for it unless you can PROVE it to them that the cable had suffered damage that will result in a failure.

 

[weressl]

yes there is a difference between "scientific terms" and basic "common sense" and that is where you and i differ. there are other things that enter into the picture which a "scientist" like you can't understand in recommending the feeder cable be replaced. and my term "fried" which you scientifically changed to "fryed" may not be a "scientific term" but it probably is a term the homeowner understood and probably agreed upon by the well contractor. or maybe i should have told the homeowner "his field windings on his submersible induction motor had insulation breakdown caused by a high frequency voltage surge which surpassed the impedance designed in the construction of the coils allowing an excessive amount of current to flow which caused the coil to melt".

the basic problem in our discussion is you are a scientist and i'm just a dumb a$$ electrician! but to sue somebody, it usually requires a jury or group of average minded people to conclude who is right and who is wrong. i will take my case to the average person. you see, i am not talking "scientific terms" -- i am talking about lightning --- throw "science" out the window when it comes to lightning------thats why we (in the trade - "not in the laboratory" ) refer to it as "UNPREDICTABLE".

Charlie,

Maybe you should know that there is a difference between a scientist and an engineer. I am not a scientist, but an engineer and was an electrician before. Regardless of what anyone's qualifications are the proper use of the appropriate terms, be they scientific or merely technical, is prudent in a discussion that addresses technical phenomena that relies on scientifically proven terms or even if it is only a theory, like lighning. I have been involved in lighting protection and mitigation - among many other things - for the past 40 years, so I would say that I am fairly familiar with the issues.

I am sure that you are familiar with the magnet wire(motor winding media) that comprises a baked on enamel insulation a couple of mills thickness. I am also sure that you are familar with cables and that the thickness of the insulation is several times of that the magnet wire. You may also remember that when in the early history the application of ASD started damaging ordinary motor insulation, but never the lead wire or the cable insulation. In other words, just because you have damaged the motor winding does not automatically mean that the cable associated with it is damaged. (I am not even going to get into the issue of what happens with an induced wave at the end of its travel.)