Replacement breakers for FPE and Pushmatic

[Fred B]

Was looking for a reference related to another post about a Wadsworth fuse box and came across that Connecticut Electric is making new replacement breakers for not only Wadsworth but also Federal, Zinsco, Challenger and Pushmatic. Supposedly all UL. Question is like for Federal can just replacing all the breakers with these "new breakers" make that panel safe? Always considered FPE inherently dangerous.

 

[James L]

Was looking for a reference related to another post about a Wadsworth fuse box and came across that Connecticut Electric is making new replacement breakers for not only Wadsworth but also Federal, Zinsco, Challenger and Pushmatic. Supposedly all UL. Question is like for Federal can just replacing all the breakers with these "new breakers" make that panel safe? Always considered FPE inherently dangerous.

I've never bought into the idea that virtually every product across a half dozen brands in the same time period are ALL inherently dangerous.

 

[Fred B]

I've never bought into the idea that virtually every product across a half dozen brands in the same time period are ALL inherently dangerous.

What was reason for FPE being thought of a problem and dangerous? Was it just the breaker failures or failure of the buss as well? Many of these panels will immediately generate a red flag from a home inspector. And some insurance companies are requiring if purchasing a new (to you) home if it has one of the panel will require it to be replaced.

 

[Hv&Lv]

What was reason for FPE being thought of a problem and dangerous? Was it just the breaker failures or failure of the buss as well? Many of these panels will immediately generate a red flag from a home inspector. And some insurance companies are requiring if purchasing a new (to you) home if it has one of the panel will require it to be replaced.

Breakers and buss
Ive worked on stab locks and replaced them with new breakers. They are like anything else, maintenance is key.
They had an issue with the breakers not tripping on overloads and heating up causing fires. Think penny in the old Edison base.
I’ve witnessed them trip on a hard fault. (Got a knife to prove it..)

Insurance companies can insure what they want And demand anything be replaced or repaired before they insure it.

here’s one piece from an insurance company

Stab-Lok circuit breaker panels: What’s the deal? - The Cincinnati Insurance Companies blog

Why has almost every insurance company taken a stance against Federal Pacific Stab-Lok circuit breakers? Short answer: They are known for starting fires.

blog.cinfin.com

 

[norcal]

There was a post somewhere with the results of testing of various makes of circuit breakers, including UL classified replacements, the results of the testing of the classified breaker testing was not impressive, but do not remember where I saw it & was unable to find it.

 

[kwired]

What was reason for FPE being thought of a problem and dangerous? Was it just the breaker failures or failure of the buss as well? Many of these panels will immediately generate a red flag from a home inspector. And some insurance companies are requiring if purchasing a new (to you) home if it has one of the panel will require it to be replaced.

Short story they once had their listing pulled presumably because they made some changes and didn't have them re evaluated for listing.

Supposedly they had legitimate product out there but then I suppose corporate greed cheated the rules and it ultimately did them in, at least on this product line.

The legitimate products they made are fine, probably most the aftermarket listed or classified products are fine, but the name has a bad reputation and insurance companies do not want to take the chance even if you can prove you have legitimate breakers installed.

 

[gadfly56]

What was reason for FPE being thought of a problem and dangerous? Was it just the breaker failures or failure of the buss as well? Many of these panels will immediately generate a red flag from a home inspector. And some insurance companies are requiring if purchasing a new (to you) home if it has one of the panel will require it to be replaced.

I can personally testify to that. New Jersey Manufacturer's was quite specific on this point.

Also, I believe the internal volume was so cramped that conductors wound up exceeding their bend radius in order to jam them all in.

 

[kwired]

I can personally testify to that. New Jersey Manufacturer's was quite specific on this point.

Also, I believe the internal volume was so cramped that conductors wound up exceeding their bend radius in order to jam them all in.

FPE wasn't the only ones with crowded space in the cabinet back when they were still in production. The ones that are still around now have larger cabinets as a general rule

 

[Hv&Lv]

I can personally testify to that. New Jersey Manufacturer's was quite specific on this point.

Also, I believe the internal volume was so cramped that conductors wound up exceeding their bend radius in order to jam them all in.

Interesting..
I believe New Jersey was where the class action lawsuit was awarded.

 

[ramsy]

There was a post somewhere with the results of testing of various makes of circuit breakers, including UL classified replacements, the results of the testing of the classified breaker testing was not impressive, but do not remember where I saw it & was unable to find it.

Perhaps the most reliable breaker ever made for FPE Stab-Lok was Schneider Electric SQUARE-D.

Safe replacement breaker fo Federal Pacific panel?

Excellent find sir. However, URL is broken. The internet SKU may be more reliable. Ahhh the link got messed up. https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sch...ker/1000112733 Edit more links PDF version of Schneider Electric's catalogue with part numbers...

forums.mikeholt.com

However, just like Pusmatic & Zinsco brands that never made combination AFCI's, much less 2-Pole versions of A/GFCI's, 406.4(D)(4) may require outlet devices, perhaps even dual function AF/GF devices for some rooms, depending on the code cycle adopted.

 

[jim dungar]

Perhaps the most reliable breaker ever made for FPE Stab-Lok was Schneider Electric SQUARE-D.

These were not from Square D, they were from Federal Pioneer out of Canada, which Is also a brand of Schneider Electric.

 

[ramsy]

..here’s one piece from an insurance company

Stab-Lok circuit breaker panels: What’s the deal? - The Cincinnati Insurance Companies blog

Why has almost every insurance company taken a stance against Federal Pacific Stab-Lok circuit breakers? Short answer: They are known for starting fires.

blog.cinfin.com

Here's another piece from Consumer Product Safety Commission

Where insurance policy won't specifically exclude a property's FPE Stab-Lok, it appears the CPSC is the Authority Having Jurisdiction, and owners can't be compelled to replace it.

 

[gadfly56]

Here's another piece from Consumer Product Safety Commission

Where insurance policy won't specifically exclude a property's FPE Stab-Lok, it appears the CPSC is the Authority Having Jurisdiction, and owners can't be compelled to replace it.

The CPSC isn't anybody's AHJ as far as I know. No state has empowered the CPSC to act in their jurisdiction. Even where they have recommended recalls, they don't have the power to compel consumers to turn in the items in question.

 

[ramsy]

Institutional investors, house flippers & property owners that have Stab-Lok equipment may be more interested in cost benefits of $120.ea for a Schneider Electric 1-Pole Stab-Lok replacement, vs cost of service upgrade. Replace more than 12 of those breakers and the cost approaches a competatively bid service upgrade.

 

[ramsy]

The CPSC isn't anybody's AHJ as far as I know. No state has empowered the CPSC to act in their jurisdiction. Even where they have recommended recalls, they don't have the power to compel consumers to turn in the items in question.

Federal law bars any person from selling products subject to a publicly announced voluntary recall by a manufacturer or a mandatory recall ordered by the Commission.

See "About the U.S. CPCS" at bottom page of my earlier link to Consumer Product Safety Commission.

 

[ramsy]

These were not from Square D, they were from Federal Pioneer out of Canada, which Is also a brand of Schneider Electric.

The UL compliance certificate was issued to SQUARE D CO, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa for Type NC, NB, and NA "Stab-lok Breakers", and the SQUARE D CO catalog page is DE1-37

 

[gadfly56]

Federal law bars any person from selling products subject to a publicly announced voluntary recall by a manufacturer or a mandatory recall ordered by the Commission.

See "About the U.S. CPCS" at bottom page of my earlier link to Consumer Product Safety Commission.

"Selling" is very different from "removing from service".

 

[jim dungar]

The UL compliance certificate was issued to SQUARE D CO, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa for Type NC, NB, and NA "Stab-lok Breakers", and the SQUARE D CO catalog page is DE1-37

The DE1 catalog is from Canada.

Stab-lok miniature circuit breakers | Schneider Electric Canada

Schneider Electric Canada. Browse our products and documents for Stab-lok miniature circuit breakers - Replacement miniature circuit breakers with handle ratings from 15 to 150A.

www.se.com

Square D is a brand of Schneider Electric with their North American molded case circuit breaker headquarters in Cedar Rapids.

I don't believe these breakers are sold 'over the counter' in the US.

 

[ramsy]

"Selling" is very different from "removing from service".

Either option of voluntary or mandatory "Recall" provides notice in the public domain. In this care, CPSC is the AHJ for mandatory Recalls.

No voluntary or mandatory Recall was issued for FPE Stab-lok equipment. However, CPSC admits statistically significant testing was not possible before their investigation was closed.

 

[ramsy]

The DE1 catalog is from Canada.

Stab-lok miniature circuit breakers | Schneider Electric Canada

Schneider Electric Canada. Browse our products and documents for Stab-lok miniature circuit breakers - Replacement miniature circuit breakers with handle ratings from 15 to 150A.

www.se.com

Square D is a brand of Schneider Electric with their North American molded case circuit breaker headquarters in Cedar Rapids.

I don't believe these breakers are sold 'over the counter' in the US.

Simply breakers sells the catalog out of Niagara Falls, New York.

Are you saying the will-call desk can't sell them in New York, or UL Compliance Certificate granted to SQUARE D CO. is not for this Federal Pioneer line card?