Replacing fire alarm panel without upgrading

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Denver Dan

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I all, I'm dealing with a Cerberus fire alarm panel that's no longer working. I would like to either replace the damaged parts with other Cerberus parts that were pulled from a working system or replace the panel with a newer panel that will work with all the current smokes, pulls etc. The vendor says the "code" doesn't allow either of these choices and wants to sell the end user a top of the line Notifier with voice and all new sensors for $230,000.

I haven't found any verbiage in any code book stating I can't do a repair. In fact, I haven't found anything in any code book that discusses the specifics of repairing/replacing an older system. Is there any code stating the unit can't be repaired? Where are the sections of the NEC, NFPA, or IBC that discuss repairing/replacing fire alarm panels?

Thanks!
 
Denver Dan said:
I all, I'm dealing with a Cerberus fire alarm panel that's no longer working. I would like to either replace the damaged parts with other Cerberus parts that were pulled from a working system or replace the panel with a newer panel that will work with all the current smokes, pulls etc. The vendor says the "code" doesn't allow either of these choices and wants to sell the end user a top of the line Notifier with voice and all new sensors for $230,000.

I haven't found any verbiage in any code book stating I can't do a repair. In fact, I haven't found anything in any code book that discusses the specifics of repairing/replacing an older system. Is there any code stating the unit can't be repaired? Where are the sections of the NEC, NFPA, or IBC that discuss repairing/replacing fire alarm panels?

Thanks!
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When you say Cerberus, do you mean a System 3 or the newer Cerberus Pro?
 
Where I live (Kansas), this would be called maintenance and be allowed. If you replaced
the panel with an upgraded panel, it would need to be UL listed as suitable for use with
the existing devices not being replaced. If you just repaired the old panel, that would
be okay too. I would suggest talking to the fire marshall for your jurisdiction. They are
ultimately the ones that tell you what you can and can't do.
 
I'm going back some 20 years or more when I used to install these systems on a regular basis, so bear with me. At one time Notifier was a real crap company that produced products that looked like they were made in someone's garage. Then along came Firelite and the bought Notifier (I have no idea who owns them today) and many things changed. You could go into an alarm equipment sales company and buy Firelite panels over the counter while the EXACT same panel sold by Notifier was considered "proprietary", meaning that they would not sell the panel without one of their AUTHORIZED dealers programming it and holding and maintaining the program so that no one else had access to make any additions or alterations.

I once both installed and programmed a large Notifier system (I forgot the model #) for a large nursing home in Ossining, NY. The company I worked for at the time made additions and alterations as were required. Once Notifier got wind that we were just an installation company, they sent in a rep who changed the password and locked us out of the system. They were willing to relinquish that code provided we issue a letter holding them harmless in the event of a system failure. Needless to say we lost that account. IMHO. it was stolen by the Notifier dealer from the company I worked for.

Having said that, I think the issue with your situation is "liability". I'm presume you are capable of adding or replacing any or all of this equipment. However, once you complete the replacement who is going to maintain it on a regular basis and who is going to be liable in the event of a system failure ?
 
If you have to replace the entire system, there isn't any reason it has to be Notifier.

I'd make sure the sales rep. knows that.
 
steve66 said:
If you have to replace the entire system, there isn't any reason it has to be Notifier.

I'd make sure the sales rep. knows that.
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If the sales rep is offering Notifier, he's a Notifier distributor, and unless he also deals with an over-the-counter brand such as Silent Knight that's the only arrow in his quiver. The big 4 WILL NOT let you rep multiple high-end systems. If Siemens finds out you are also carrying EST as a bona fide distributor they will yank your Siemens distributorship. Heck, you may lose them both.
 
gadfly56 said:
If the sales rep is offering Notifier, he's a Notifier distributor, and unless he also deals with an over-the-counter brand such as Silent Knight that's the only arrow in his quiver. The big 4 WILL NOT let you rep multiple high-end systems. If Siemens finds out you are also carrying EST as a bona fide distributor they will yank your Siemens distributorship. Heck, you may lose them both.
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So you go to a different sales rep.

Personally, for 230K, I'd have it designed and bid.
 
steve66 said:
So you go to a different sales rep.

Personally, for 230K, I'd have it designed and bid.
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The questions I have are "Will the existing smokes work with a different brand panel"? If so, "Who is going to warranty the system"?
From what I remember in my days of installing these systems, no manufacturer will. Better find that out before you commit.
 
A sales reps job #1 is to sell you stuff whether you need it or not. My rule of thumb is never trust them, never ask them questions about code or actual installs, their a salesman they most likely dont know and their sheer purpose is to sell you something.

I'd talk to the fire marshall if you feel you need to or just repair the existing even if you have to sub an electronics geek to determine what happened to the board to repair it. Or find a replacement off amazon or ebay.
 
Not sure it's still relevant, but way back I worked for a company that installed new Pyrotronics System3 and Edwards systems, and serviced almost anything. We regularly used shop-tested modules where we couldn't gt new ones (1930's Faraday, anyone? we had parts) and occasionally used current-production pulled/tested parts for repair (emphasis on the 'tested').

As to whether you can use a new panel with old pull stations/smokes/etc, there's quite a lot of "it depends".
 
Sorry I don't have a specific code reference but my experience is this. Repairing a panel with new or used parts is ok. Working at a circuit board level yourself is not ok unless you are factory. Replacing a fire panel generally triggers all kinds of upgrade issues. For example are field devices listed and compatible with new panel? most AHJS require entire systems to be brought up to current code triggered by, you guessed it, a panel change. The sad part of this is that the incentive for bld owners is to repair the old junk over replacement to avoid large upgrade costs. NFPA requires a retest with the fire dept. when a panel is changed, so it becomes more than just an electrical scope.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
goldstar said:
The questions I have are "Will the existing smokes work with a different brand panel"? If so, "Who is going to warranty the system"?
From what I remember in my days of installing these systems, no manufacturer will. Better find that out before you commit.
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But he said the salesman wants to also replace all the "sensors". I take that to mean a totally replaced fire alarm system, smokes and all.
 
steve66 said:
But he said the salesman wants to also replace all the "sensors". I take that to mean a totally replaced fire alarm system, smokes and all.
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That is correct. That is what the salesman wanted him to do. I interpreted the OP as wanting to replace the FA panel only.
 
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