Required Floor Receptacle

[iwire]

Purpose of required outlets: Prevent fires by providing outlets where most likely used so people don't string long cords.
* example: countertop outlets are 4' apart versus wall outlets that are 12' apart.

Balance: Burden of installation versus the Likelihood of use.
* example: excluding sliding panels

Good design practice would place outlets along a loft that was wide enough to accomodate tables and chairs. Not all lofts do. Some are barely more than the space a staircase landing would provide. For those a floor receptacle would actually create a trip hazard that no one would ever use as an outlet. Minimum requirements would say no outlet required. Judgement should be in the hands of the designer according to the designed use of the area.

Again there is no difference in hazard between a wall without a receptacle or a railing as described by the OP without a receptacle.

In my opinion it is not up to the designer the code requires one along the railing described by the opening poster.

 

[pfalcon]

Just adding to my line of thoughts on the subject.

We disagree about the 3' railing on the edge of a loft. Whether spindles or drywall I believe it is a safety rail and neither a wall nor room divider. I believe the intent of the code to be minimizing cord lengths and not spamming outlets. Make the loft thin enough and outlets are a needless expense that might present a trip hazard.

You believe the rail is a room divider. And you might be right. In which case the outlets are required.

Frankly, I believe the NEC is getting carried away mixing practice with design. Fire alarms, AFCIs, GFCIs, TRs, outlet placements et al, are all design issues. Many of them are and should be mandated but that doesn't make placing them wiring practices. NFPA was correct to move PPE and other safety practices into the 70E. Maybe it's time to move design issues into a separate book. I mean really, do I need to carry Article 530 around all the time?

 

[kwired]

Just adding to my line of thoughts on the subject.

We disagree about the 3' railing on the edge of a loft. Whether spindles or drywall I believe it is a safety rail and neither a wall nor room divider. I believe the intent of the code to be minimizing cord lengths and not spamming outlets. Make the loft thin enough and outlets are a needless expense that might present a trip hazard.

You believe the rail is a room divider. And you might be right. In which case the outlets are required.

Frankly, I believe the NEC is getting carried away mixing practice with design. Fire alarms, AFCIs, GFCIs, TRs, outlet placements et al, are all design issues. Many of them are and should be mandated but that doesn't make placing them wiring practices. NFPA was correct to move PPE and other safety practices into the 70E. Maybe it's time to move design issues into a separate book. I mean really, do I need to carry Article 530 around all the time?

Don't give NFPA any ideas with your comment about 530. I would rather leave ch 5 and 6 pretty much the way it is then have them make me buy a separate code book for each article that is currently in ch 5 and 6. Otherwise I'm sure they would like to sell an additional 10-12 separate code books for what ch 5 alone all covers.

 

[pfalcon]

Don't give NFPA any ideas with your comment about 530. I would rather leave ch 5 and 6 pretty much the way it is then have them make me buy a separate code book for each article that is currently in ch 5 and 6. Otherwise I'm sure they would like to sell an additional 10-12 separate code books for what ch 5 alone all covers.

Welcome to Europe Wait! No! We haven't gone ISO yet!

I agree that it shouldn't blast out to a dozen specialty books. Yet, it needs to be broken down before the NEC becomes a multi-volume set or one that requires a lifting device for ergonomics. Design v. Practice is a good place for the break. Then the architects could be required to meet code in the design

 

[lauraj]

How do you justify not putting a floor receptacle next to a loft railing? IMO it is wall space.

 

[pfalcon]

How do you justify not putting a floor receptacle next to a loft railing? IMO it is wall space.

And that "IMO" is all the problem. If you presume it's wall space then yes it needs a receptacle. In the code it's only wall space if it's a "room divider". But it's not there to divide the room, it's there to keep peeps from falling off.

How about we move that railing 5' back from the edge and not place a railing at the edge at all? Since peeps are separated from the edge a safety railing there is no longer required, it's 5' back. Do you still place receptacles at the edge? Even though no one will ever be in that area? Do you place receptacles on the back side of the rail?

If it's 5' back from the edge then I'd say it's dividing the loft room. Now it needs receptacles accessible on both sides of the railing. But the edge still doesn't need any. It's no longer a safety rail and is now a room divider. But that long drop is not a room divider so it doesn't need outlets.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

And that "IMO" is all the problem. If you presume it's wall space then yes it needs a receptacle. In the code it's only wall space if it's a "room divider". But it's not there to divide the room, it's there to keep peeps from falling off.

How about we move that railing 5' back from the edge and not place a railing at the edge at all? Since peeps are separated from the edge a safety railing there is no longer required, it's 5' back. Do you still place receptacles at the edge? Even though no one will ever be in that area? Do you place receptacles on the back side of the rail?

If it's 5' back from the edge then I'd say it's dividing the loft room. Now it needs receptacles accessible on both sides of the railing. But the edge still doesn't need any. It's no longer a safety rail and is now a room divider. But that long drop is not a room divider so it doesn't need outlets.

No receptacles would be needed since it does not meet the requirements of 210.52(A) General Provisions.

 

[jwelectric]

And that "IMO" is all the problem. If you presume it's wall space then yes it needs a receptacle. In the code it's only wall space if it's a "room divider". But it's not there to divide the room, it's there to keep peeps from falling off.

I sort of agree with you in so much as the railing is a safety to keep anyone from falling. It is the height that divides the room and therefore it is the difference in the height of the two floors that mandates that a receptacle be installed.

The railing is just one way we divide rooms. Free standing bars are another way we divide rooms. Having one room 8 feet higher than another room is another way to divide the two rooms.

Yes I think that the room in the picture would require a receptacle with or without the railing.

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

 

[Little Bill]

I sort of agree with you in so much as the railing is a safety to keep anyone from falling. It is the height that divides the room and therefore it is the difference in the height of the two floors that mandates that a receptacle be installed.

The railing is just one way we divide rooms. Free standing bars are another way we divide rooms. Having one room 8 feet higher than another room is another way to divide the two rooms.

Yes I think that the room in the picture would require a receptacle with or without the railing.

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

The one in the picture is not the one in the OP. The OP said open picket railing. What about that?
I don't see anything in the code that says room height is a divider.

 

[pfalcon]

No receptacles would be needed since it does not meet the requirements of 210.52(A) General Provisions.

210.52(A)(2)(3) of course is the issue. Against the edge I believe it's there for safety not room division. 5' from the edge I believe it's there to divide the loft room.

I sort of agree with you in so much as the railing is a safety to keep anyone from falling. It is the height that divides the room and therefore it is the difference in the height of the two floors that mandates that a receptacle be installed.

The railing is just one way we divide rooms. Free standing bars are another way we divide rooms. Having one room 8 feet higher than another room is another way to divide the two rooms.

Yes I think that the room in the picture would require a receptacle with or without the railing.

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

And though I'd recommend against crossing a room with an 8' drop in the middle, open concept room divisions are purely philosophical. And I think the freestanding part of the clause I bold-faced is tough to apply to a drop.

The one in the picture is not the one in the OP. The OP said open picket railing. What about that?
I don't see anything in the code that says room height is a divider.

I think he was applying the such as which I can see as a valid point. I think also that glass-panel railing or picket railing makes no difference.

How about NO RAILING. Would we need receptacles along the drop? Can we say trip hazard? Of course, I suspect other building codes would object to the lack.

 

[jwelectric]

The one in the picture is not the one in the OP. The OP said open picket railing. What about that?
I don't see anything in the code that says room height is a divider.

I don’t see how that the height between the two areas is not a divider. One couldn’t just walk from one to the other so the height does divide the two.

I think he was applying the such as which I can see as a valid point. I think also that glass-panel railing or picket railing makes no difference.

How about NO RAILING. Would we need receptacles along the drop? Can we say trip hazard? Of course, I suspect other building codes would object to the lack.

Yes the “such as” is what I was addressing. The “such as” gives two examples but does not limit it to just those two.
Yes if there was no railing of any kind the height separates the two areas from each other therefore requiring the floor receptacle to be installed, trip hazard or not.
Oh by the way I tripped over the lamp cord that was plugged into the receptacle in the hotel room I stayed in last week. Does this mean we shouldn't be installing wall receptacles either?

 

[charlie b]

Having one room 8 feet higher than another room is another way to divide the two rooms.

No, it's way to separate one room from a different room. It is not a way to divide a room (Singular!) into two separate spaces. The NEC language is all about a single room being divided by a free-standing bar-type counters or railings. The word "dividers" is plural in that article because it has a compound object (i.e., counters and railings), not because there is more than one room involved.

 

[pfalcon]

I don?t see how that the height between the two areas is not a divider. One couldn?t just walk from one to the other so the height does divide the two.

Don't forget that freestanding part. I don't think a drop is considered freestanding so it doesn't meet the requirement for (3)

Oh by the way I tripped over the lamp cord that was plugged into the receptacle in the hotel room I stayed in last week. Does this mean we shouldn't be installing wall receptacles either?

WOAH! Did you say you tripped over a WALL receptacle? :rotflmao: Oops! No! You said the lamp cord :ashamed:

No, I think it means you're not supposed to drape the cords across walkways.

 

[jwelectric]

Don't forget that freestanding part. I don't think a drop is considered freestanding so it doesn't meet the requirement for (3).

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as (but not limited to)
1-freestanding bar-type counters
or
2- rreestanding railings

or
any thing else that seprates the two

Those things in blue are implied by the verbiage "such as"

 

[charlie b]

Those things in blue are implied by the verbiage "such as"

I have no problem with the phrase "such as." But the "such as items" divide a room into two separate areas. When you separate one room from another room, that particular article does not come into play.

By the way, this is totally unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I have a real problem with the code's use of the word "afforded" in this article. It is totally wrong, and makes no sense whatsoever in this sentence. End of rant.

 

[jwelectric]

I have no problem with the phrase "such as." But the "such as items" divide a room into two separate areas. When you separate one room from another room, that particular article does not come into play.

By the way, this is totally unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I have a real problem with the code's use of the word "afforded" in this article. It is totally wrong, and makes no sense whatsoever in this sentence. End of rant.

Let me make sure that I understand what you are saying.

Should a 9 foot peninsular separate the kitchen from the dining room you are saying that a 210.52(A)(1) receptacle would not be required.
But you are saying is that should the peninsular divide the kitchen into two parts then it would require a 210.52(A)(1) receptacle.

Is this correct?

 

[jwelectric]

I have no problem with the phrase "such as." But the "such as items" divide a room into two separate areas. When you separate one room from another room, that particular article does not come into play.

By the way, this is totally unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I have a real problem with the code's use of the word "afforded" in this article. It is totally wrong, and makes no sense whatsoever in this sentence. End of rant.

Would this mean that should I have an island in the middle of my kitchen it would require two receptacles, one for 210.52(A)(1) and another for 210.52(C)(2)? :?

Wouldn?t the freestanding island be dividing the kitchen into two parts?:?

 

[pfalcon]

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as (but not limited to)
1-freestanding bar-type counters
or
2- rreestanding railings

or
any thing else that seprates the two

Those things in blue are implied by the verbiage "such as"

Wow! Deja Vu! Last time I applied an adjective on both sides of an or clause I got flamed

How-some-ever, the term such as does not mean anything. It means only those things which are similar to the listed items. Otherwise you'd be installing receptacles along movable freestanding railings that have no permanent location. Considering how slow my uncle moves you might need one at his feet, though I'd question whether he's freestanding or not. He does tend to divide the room. :ashamed:

Freestanding counters and freestanding railings are placed in a room with the purpose of creating "defined space". Their placement and design are purely subjective to the designer. Any safety enhancements created by them are purely accidental.

Safety railings along drops are placed in a room with the purpose of creating safety enhancements and not to define space. Any space definition is already created by the drop. Either the drop without the railing can be considered wall space or not. If it's wall space then it needs receptacles. But the presence of a safety device does not make it a wall.

IMO

 

[pfalcon]

Let me make sure that I understand what you are saying.

Should a 9 foot peninsular separate the kitchen from the dining room you are saying that a 210.52(A)(1) receptacle would not be required.
But you are saying is that should the peninsular divide the kitchen into two parts then it would require a 210.52(A)(1) receptacle.

Is this correct?

I believe Charlie is trying to point out that a room divider separates a single room into two defined spaces. Whereas a peninsular counter between the dining and kitchen separates two rooms that are already defined in space.

 

[charlie b]

Mike, there are rules related to peninsulas and islands. Separate from those rules, there are rules related to walls. If you want to know what to do about peninsula receptacles and island receptacles, you don't read the rules about wall receptacles. The question at hand is what constitutes a wall, in the context of a wall needing a receptacle every so often. The rule that explains what constitutes a wall speaks of fixed room dividers. All I am saying is that a railing that keeps a person from falling from an upstairs landing to a downstairs room is not a "room divider." It is not dividing a room.