resetting a 2000a main

[billdozier]

Hey guys my brother called me this morning after he had reset a tripped 2000a main breaker. I ripped him a new one as he is the head of security on a large condo and not maintenence or an electrician. I explained to him the possibilities of an arc blast as well as the other dangers of opening this breaker without knowing the reason for the trippage. Im wondering was I in the right to forewarn him of these problems. Should maintenence guys be resetting 2000a mains that are tripped? This is a new condo new enough that the ec company is still on site working punch. Thanks for any feedback

 

[electricalperson]

i think you were right. he should of had the electrician come. at least shut off all the breakers in the panel before closing that breaker.

 

[electricalperson]

i know maintanence guys that work on 480v VFD's and cause arc flashes. i found a melted screwdriver and melted parts in the VFD when i was working on it

 

[charlietuna]

If the building is occupied the EC has nothing to do with it--the management-condo association or owner directs this operation. If they have a maintainance man(?) i'd say thats his job, but consider all the tenants standing in the lobby wondering what going on??? It's not unusual for the security guard to tackle this job!!! There should be some instructions concerning this if the building is new? We had a office building with a full maintainance crew sent the guard in to reset a 4000 amp main after hours and he didn't understand the instructions on the front of the switchboard and instead of ratcheting the pringle handle - he went past the 90 degree position and snapped the handle's shaft off flush with the front of the switchgear--then they called us!

 

[electricalperson]

If the building is occupied the EC has nothing to do with it--the management-condo association or owner directs this operation. If they have a maintainance man(?) i'd say thats his job, but consider all the tenants standing in the lobby wondering what going on??? It's not unusual for the security guard to tackle this job!!! There should be some instructions concerning this if the building is new? We had a office building with a full maintainance crew sent the guard in to reset a 4000 amp main after hours and he didn't understand the instructions on the front of the switchboard and instead of ratcheting the pringle handle - he went past the 90 degree position and snapped the handle's shaft off flush with the front of the switchgear--then they called us!

people snapping those handles off is pretty common. im sure brian john seen that a few times. i love it when people try to turn off those breakers by using the handle instead of pushing the button that says OFF

 

[billdozier]

Just got some more info on this breaker. Whatever the problem it seems to have not only tripped the 3000a but also a 700a breaker as well as another smaller breaker. They traced it back to some type of aqua system which has to do with the heaters from what hes telling me. I guess my next biggest question is why did it trip 3 seperate breakers in 3 different panels? Also this was on the house power side and not the residential side. Apparently they have two seperate 3000a breakers. Which leads me to believe this is not the primary main? Am I correct in my thinking?

 

[chris kennedy]

I guess my next biggest question is why did it trip 3 seperate breakers in 3 different panels?

Poor coordination.

And a thought, 110.16 will not stop the lay man from attempting to close a breaker.

110.16 Flash Protection.
Electrical equipment, such as switchboards, panelboards, industrial control panels, meter socket enclosures, and motor control centers, that are in other than dwelling occupancies, and are likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall be field marked to warn qualified persons of potential electric arc flash hazards. The marking shall be located so as to be clearly visible to qualified persons before examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance of the equipment.

 

[infinity]

Maybe an improper GFI setting? Is the EC still working in the building? Has the service been officially turned over? When we do large installations no one except the EC touches anything in the service room until the job has been signed off.

 

[wireguru]

I have a new product. Its a protective cover that goes over large breakers (like the plastic lift up covers for fire alarm pulls) with an LCD screen on the front. You have to watch an arc flash video before the cover will open and allow access to the breaker. (needs to have some means to turn the breaker off with the cover closed though)

copyright 2009 wireguru..patent pending...all rights reserved

 

[weressl]

Hey guys my brother called me this morning after he had reset a tripped 2000a main breaker. I ripped him a new one as he is the head of security on a large condo and not maintenence or an electrician. I explained to him the possibilities of an arc blast as well as the other dangers of opening this breaker without knowing the reason for the trippage. Im wondering was I in the right to forewarn him of these problems. Should maintenence guys be resetting 2000a mains that are tripped? This is a new condo new enough that the ec company is still on site working punch. Thanks for any feedback

Should he have done it?

Technically: no
Legally: no
In real life: happens all the time.

When will it stop? Only a coffin and a lawsuit will do it.

You were right and doing him and his family a favor if he will follow you advice.

 

[benaround]

Bill, IMO, You did the right thing, that gear could of taken his face off under the right

conditions. It only happens once in a while but it does happen.

 

[charlietuna]

If three breakers tripped i would suspect you had some type of a ground fault and each of these breakers requires the ground fault reset before they will close. The equipment is designed(supposidly) to trip again without exposing the operator to danger. However, i have seen some major explosions blow serious holes in switchboards on phase to phase faults. But it is scarey when you consider the operations of many large buildings with nobody but a security guard to handle situations they have no clue at what they are doing and the dangers involved...

 

[alfiesauce]

are the trip settings set up correctly on the larger breakers?
I had a supervisor who would always turn down the response times to minimum on large mains when we were working in the building as a saftey procaution. It would trip out faster than a 20A breaker would.

 

[mikeames]

Maybe service rooms should be required to have Blast suites located in the room in effort to protect those who don't know or care. (Unqualified EC's and Maintenance) I knwo it may be "enabling" but it might save lives.

 

[zog]

are the trip settings set up correctly on the larger breakers?
I had a supervisor who would always turn down the response times to minimum on large mains when we were working in the building as a saftey procaution. It would trip out faster than a 20A breaker would.

Are the settings right on the smaller breakers? I see electricians "crank up" these settings all the time after a breaker trips.

 

[zog]

Hey guys my brother called me this morning after he had reset a tripped 2000a main breaker. I ripped him a new one as he is the head of security on a large condo and not maintenence or an electrician. I explained to him the possibilities of an arc blast as well as the other dangers of opening this breaker without knowing the reason for the trippage. Im wondering was I in the right to forewarn him of these problems. Should maintenence guys be resetting 2000a mains that are tripped? This is a new condo new enough that the ec company is still on site working punch. Thanks for any feedback

OSHA Violation, I have posted this many times but in case you have not seen it you can show this to your friend.

1910.334 (b)(2) "Reclosing circuits after protective device operation." After a circuit is deenergized by a circuit protective device, the circuit protective device, the circuit may not be manually reenergized until it has been determined that the equipment and circuit can be safely energized. The repetitive manual reclosing of circuit breakers or reenergizing circuits through replaced fuses is prohibited.

Note: When it can be determined from the design of the circuit and the overcurrent devices involved that the automatic operation of a device was caused by an overload rather than a fault condition, no examination of the circuit or connected equipment is needed before the circuit is reenergized.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

If I am reading this correctly, then there is something very wrong in the management company's policies for this property.

The management company is responsible to have qualified people on call for this type of issue.


Also, if this is a condo group with a 2000 amp service, is the service voltage 208 or 480?
Most likely 208.
How does a 2000 amp breaker trip based on most loads are the different condos????????????????????????????????

This should send up a red flag to the management company...directing them to hire the proper people to trouble shoot this situation.

Wait...
this is the real world, just reset it and lets have some coffee, its cold out.:roll::roll::roll:

 

[billdozier]

thanks to every one who has chimed in. The ec adjusted the aic? ratings on the breaker and has a siemens rep coming out to look at the breaker. Zog thank you for the osha article now he has some footing to keep his guys from having to mess with this breaker. Sure its a 1 in a 100 chance of an arc blast but he is family and I dont want him to be the one that catches it wrong. If I reset the breaker and dont have proper ppe thats on me and deserve what ever happens. I like the idea of the arcsuit in a room but think its not feasible due to monitary reasons thanks again

 

[jim dungar]

thanks to every one who has chimed in. The ec adjusted the aic? ratings on the breaker and has a siemens rep coming out to look at the breaker. Zog thank you for the osha article now he has some footing to keep his guys from having to mess with this breaker. Sure its a 1 in a 100 chance of an arc blast but he is family and I dont want him to be the one that catches it wrong. If I reset the breaker and dont have proper ppe thats on me and deserve what ever happens. I like the idea of the arcsuit in a room but think its not feasible due to monitary reasons thanks again

You can not adjust the AIC rating of a breaker. The most common "crank up" adjustment is made to the Instantaneous function.

A rep coming out for "free" to look at the breaker won't help much. You most likely need to hire someone to perform a coordination study and/or someone to test the breaker.

Arc flash and arc blast are two different conditions and the terms should not be used interchangeably. Arc flash is primarily a "fireball", an arc blast is basically a shock wave and shrapnell. There is currently no PPE available for arc blasts.

 

[MarkyMarkNC]

A rep coming out for "free" to look at the breaker won't help much. You most likely need to hire someone to perform a coordination study and/or someone to test the breaker.

I'm sure the Siemans service division would be glad to sell a coordination study to them. All of the gear companies offer this service. Probably the only reason they are coming out for "free."