residential baseboard receptacle

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Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by apauling:
i agree with john for the reason he stated. I do not remember kitchen walls with 12' of cabinet. it is also not likely that a small table and chair will be set in front of the kitchen cabinets as it is with the books to peruse them, as is the wont of bookish people like me who have extensive libraries with small tables and lamps. I just look like a couch potato.

paul
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Paul I see this all the time. Tons of cabinets with a couple of four foot Sub Zeros mixed in. Do you say receptacles are needed?
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
But John by your logic we would be required to have receptacles in front of floor to ceiling pantry cabinets in kitchens or dining rooms etc. Would you say this is true?
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Scott, good point. I would not call this wallspace in terms of receptacle requrement. But I was talking bookcases - not cabinets. ie no doors. Maybe I didn't read post thoroughly. I you lined all walls in a room with floor to ceiling cabinets with doors then I would not consider it wallspace. Cabinets would be no different than closet doors, for example in that case.

John
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by infinity:
Besides who would put something in front of a bookcase?
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My thoughts exactly. I'm suprised no one said it until the second page.

If you were to walk through your local library and trip over a lamp in front of a bookcase, wouldn't you find it odd?

I too would call it a "similar opening." It falls on the AHJ to agree or disagree. I believe a discussion about the use of such outlets would result in no outlets being required.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
I would not call this wallspace in terms of receptacle requrement. But I was talking bookcases - not cabinets. ie no doors. Maybe I didn't read post thoroughly. I you lined all walls in a room with floor to ceiling cabinets with doors then I would not consider it wallspace. Cabinets would be no different than closet doors, for example in that case.

John
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John where in the NEC are you finding that a wall completely covered with permanent shelving is wall space but if you install doors in front of the shelves it is not wall space?
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by georgestolz:
If you were to walk through your local library and trip over a lamp in front of a bookcase, wouldn't you find it odd?
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A library is not a dwelling unit, you do not have to install any receptacles. :D Well, nearly none. :p
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by iwire:
Originally posted by j_erickson:
I would not call this wallspace in terms of receptacle requrement. But I was talking bookcases - not cabinets. ie no doors. Maybe I didn't read post thoroughly. I you lined all walls in a room with floor to ceiling cabinets with doors then I would not consider it wallspace. Cabinets would be no different than closet doors, for example in that case.

John
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John where in the NEC are you finding that a wall completely covered with permanent shelving is wall space but if you install doors in front of the shelves it is not wall space?
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Bob,

That is my interpretation. Cabinets with doors on them floor to ceiling is the same as a closet door opening to me. Open shelving is the same as wallspace to me. Please cite something to convince me otherwise - I'm open to it. I just do notconsider a shelf to be a "similar opening" as a fireplace.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by iwire:
A library is not a dwelling unit, you do not have to install any receptacles. :D
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Bob, 210.52 recognizes that a library-room could exist in a dwelling. Just as theater-rooms are frequently modeled after real commercial theaters, I'd imagine a library-room would imitate real 'commercial' libraries. Hence the analogy I was attempting to draw.

What do fireplaces and doorways have in common? It's not a fire hazard. IMO, it's the fact that in 99% of the houses you look at, it's highly unusual to slide a couch or table in front of them.

In a library-room, is there a high chance that someone's going to block off a section of books by placing a table or a couch or something else within 18" of that shelf and use it as wall space instead of shelf space? I don't think so.

I imagine the couches, chairs, tables, desks, are going to be centrally located in the room, and floor outlets at the occupants discretion will be used, for lamps and other equipment, away from the shelves that the room was built for.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Originally posted by iwire:
A library is not a dwelling unit, you do not have to install any receptacles. :D
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Bob, 210.52 recognizes that a library-room could exist in a dwelling.
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You did not say that, you said

If you were to walk through your local library and trip over a lamp in front of a bookcase, wouldn't you find it odd?
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I have never found a local library that was a dwelling unit. :D

I am just splitting hairs, I knew what you meant. :p
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:


That is my interpretation. Cabinets with doors on them floor to ceiling is the same as a closet door opening to me. Open shelving is the same as wallspace to me. Please cite something to convince me otherwise - I'm open to it. I just do notconsider a shelf to be a "similar opening" as a fireplace.
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John it is your job as the inspector to cite a section that is in violation. :p

It is not my job as the installer to find a section that allows it.

IMO, The side of a room that is covered with built in shelves is not wall space.

I think your position that shelves are wall space but add a door over the shelves and it is now not wall space is odd. :confused:
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

John, you are way smarter than this. Cabinets with doors are NOT closets.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

This discussion reminds me of a similar issue! Required wall outlets in a "sunroom", are the glass walls considered in requiring outlets? Usually they are. So how is this issue resolved?

Mostly by surface mounting outlets, or floor mounting outlets, in order to meet code requirements.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
John, you are way smarter than this. Cabinets with doors are NOT closets.
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Also, I did not say that a cabinet with doors is a closet. I said that they would constitute a door or similar opening thus not requiring a receptacle. Or at least that is what I was trying to imply.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
John, you are way smarter than this. Cabinets with doors are NOT closets.
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Then they must be wall space.
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No they are cabinets with doors. :D

There are no cabinet receptacle requirements in the NEC.

:cool:
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I believe a discussion about the use of such outlets would result in no outlets being required.
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Well, then let's have one. Oh, wait; we already are.

When there is ambiguity in an NEC article (gee, hardly ever!), I like to look at the implied intent of the code. In this case, receptacle placement and spacing are usually designed to eliminate the need for extension cords.

If a room is built or permanantly furnished in a way that precludes the use of plug-in lighting or appliances, there isn't a direct requirement for them. For illumination, this would mean that there is adequate permanent lighting.

Even a hallway needs one receptacle (if it's 10' or longer) for vacuuming and such (like a trouble light when working on a luminaire). I would want at least one wall-mounted receptacle in such a room. Floor receptacles are always an option.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by LarryFine:
When there is ambiguity in an NEC article (gee, hardly ever!), I like to look at the implied intent of the code.
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You can not do that, the only thing that is legally enforceable are the words written in the code.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by iwire:


It is not my job as the installer to find a section that allows it.
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I interpret open shelves as wallspace. Unless you could show me that they are not then that is my interpretation. Wallspace requires receptacles. Please cite an exception for open shelves.
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

(quote)
This discussion reminds me of a similar issue! Required wall outlets in a "sunroom", are the glass walls considered in requiring outlets? Usually they are. So how is this issue resolved?

Mostly by surface mounting outlets, or floor mounting outlets, in order to meet code requirements
There is a clear cut article that determines what a fixed panel is and that receptacles must be installed so as to meet spacing.When the NEC put fireplace or SIMULAR opening in the wording of required receptacles that allowed interpetation to be up to the installer and the AHJ.There is an allowance to install receptacles within the space of a floor to ceiling built in but it is just that an allowance it is not mandated they be there ;)
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

If you guys are saying that a room lined with open shelves in a dwelling unit would not require any receptacle outlets, then I'll just agree to disagree.

John
 
Re: residential baseboard receptacle

One could argue that someone may come along and strip the room of the shelving, and they'd be left with a room with no receptacles.

You could always wire receptacle boxes with blank plates and cover them with the cabinetry. Boxes must be accessible, not readily so.
 
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