residential baseboard receptacle

[iwire]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by LarryFine:
One could argue that someone may come along and strip the room of the shelving, and they'd be left with a room with no receptacles.

Yes and they could come by later still and make it a kitchen, that does not mean we need counter top boxes in place today.

 

[iwire]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

In the interest of clarity my opinions about the bookcases are for bookcases that are literally part of the building. They would be left in place when the building changes hands just like a fireplace or a doorway.

I do not mean a row of book cases that are furniture as a hutch or chair would be.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
If you guys are saying that a room lined with open shelves in a dwelling unit would not require any receptacle outlets, then I'll just agree to disagree.

What separates this from a closet? Do you require receptacles to be installed in closets?

If there were a library-room with three walls of shelves, and 1 wall of empty wall, I would say one wall of the library has to have receptacle outlets installed per 210.52.

The receptacles would be hidden by books anyway, who would know they exist, or use them, and for what purpose?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Agreed if they are integral then not an issue of required receptacles.Although it might be a good idea there is nothing that mandates them.
It is kind of screwy that a fixed panel of glass in a room requires receps.to be installed to spacing requirements but fireplaces and built ins don`t But who am I to argue.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by LarryFine:
When there is ambiguity in an NEC article (gee, hardly ever!), I like to look at the implied intent of the code.

You can not do that, the only thing that is legally enforceable are the words written in the code.

Well, I can; I'm not an inspector. As I said, "I like to look at the implied intent of the code," but that doesn't obligate anyone to agree with me. I can look all I want. :roll:

 

[JohnE]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by j_erickson:
If you guys are saying that a room lined with open shelves in a dwelling unit would not require any receptacle outlets, then I'll just agree to disagree.

What separates this from a closet? Do you require receptacles to be installed in closets?

If there were a library-room with three walls of shelves, and 1 wall of empty wall, I would say one wall of the library has to have receptacle outlets installed per 210.52.

The receptacles would be hidden by books anyway, who would know they exist, or use them, and for what purpose?

George,

1. I do not require receptacles in closets. I'm insulted that you'd ask me that with respect to this discussion.

2. I still consider a wall lined with bookshelves as "wall space". To me it is a "fixed room divider" as per 210.52 A 2 (3).

As to "the receptacles would be hidden by books anyway, who would know they would exist, or use them, and for what purpose":

They would not be hidden if:
1. They were installed in the floor.
2. They were installed in the baseboard below shelving.
3. Shelves were not completely stuffed with books. Just because it is bookshelf, does not mean a book will cover every sqauare inch of every shelf for all of time.

Presumably if they were hidden by books, then whomever placed the books on the shelves would know they were there.

For what purpose? Floor lamp. Small candle type lamp placed on shelf. Cell phone charger. PDA. Laptop. Fax. i-pod. Postage meter. I'm just looking at the items in my home office. Perhaps someone with better taste than me would have nothing but literary classics in their bookshelves (top to bottom, left to right). I hope that they do not need multiple levels of light to read though, as their only illumination will be overhead lighting. Sorry no lamps.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
1. I do not require receptacles in closets. I'm insulted that you'd ask me that with respect to this discussion.

No insult intended - I know you don't, I was making that statement to reinforce my position. Sorry for the offense, none intended.

2. I still consider a wall lined with bookshelves as "wall space". To me it is a "fixed room divider" as per 210.52 A 2 (3).

I suppose that's your prerogative, we'll have to agree to disagree.

For what purpose? Floor lamp. Small candle type lamp placed on shelf. Cell phone charger. PDA. Laptop. Fax. i-pod. Postage meter. I'm just looking at the items in my home office...

I'd imagine someone with such a thirst for books would likely be able to determine on their own if they would care to have receptacles on their shelves. I believe this to be similar to the SABC/appliance garage debate, where I stated my view that an appliance garage in and of itself is an indicator of a dwelling where minimum standards of the NEC need not address, as the homeowner at that point has exceeded building minimums and has ventured into a higher design.

The minimums must be adhered to, of course, but they need not be revised to regulate these areas. This is similar to the library, IMO.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

John for the record I am talking about built in cabinetry (without doors ). I fail to see how built in shelving could be considered a "room divider". By definition it just does not make sense. In the real world outside of these technical discussions I would make every effort to assure that there were receptacles installed. However I don't see the letter of the code as written requiring them.
I have argued a similar situation with a built in window seat that sat between floor to ceiling cabinetry. Inspector wanted an outlet, customer did not. I asked for something to show that I was required to install one. Needless to say no outlet was installed.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

I had a simular situation in regards to a built in counter area in a loft.It sat between 2 bedroom doors and there was only 6 to 8 inches of space fron the edge of the doors to the counter top on either side it was in a recess between the 2 rooms.Inspector asked where was the required receptacle.
Why is it required I asked there is no floor line to measure and it isn`t a sa circuit or a bath recep.He looked couldnt find anything to back his request so he signed it off.Would it be a good idea to have it IMO yes,is it required no.

 

[JohnE]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Scott,

My interpretation is that what you describe closely resembles "space unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings". I do not consider shelving to be a similar opening to a fireplace. I consider it to be closer to a freestanding bar type counter than a fireplace. What if only bookshelves were dividing family room from say kitchen? Still an opening? I feel that it is wallspace. I also feel that the window seat that you describe is wallspace. What if a freestanding bar type counter had nothing but open shelves below it. Does the "open shelf" supercede the fact that it is a free standing bar type counter? I say no.

With that said, if I were making an inspection for the case you described, I would probably pass the job without a receptacle. Before anyone jumps on me for saying that, I'll say that on almost every job that I have ever seen, there are code violations and the job is passed. They are probably inconsequential, but exist nonetheless. I hope that the last 2 sentences do not start a 400 post thread.

John

 

[allenwayne]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

John I almost have to agree with you in regards to there being some violation in one way shape or form.But That really depends on the job that is undergoing the inspection process ,doesn`t it?
A small simple install I would say that doesn`t apply .But get into a large 1000`s of items install ,be it a home a store or a factory.In those cases there usually is something that can be picked apart to go along with your statement.Be it one conductor that is 1 in. short of the required length at a j box or box fill is 1/2 cu. in. over in a jbox.These are things that an inspector usually never sees since everything is buttoned up nice and tight for him.So yes depending on the job that statement can be considered valid.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
I hope that the last 2 sentences do not start a 400 post thread.

Awww, you're no fun!

 

[iwire]

Re: residential baseboard receptacle

Originally posted by j_erickson:
I'll say that on almost every job that I have ever seen, there are code violations and the job is passed.

John I think that any electrician that thinks they have perfect installations are fooling themselves.

I try hard to install to the NEC but I have no doubt an inspector could find something wrong on all but the smallest jobs.