Residential final inspection.

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kwired said:
If a jurisdiction wants to make a rule that said connections need made for "rough-in" inspection, then so be it.
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I would not pass rough in inspection anywhere around me without having at least the grounds made up.

I had one guy go through an entire office fit out with a small flash light looking in everyone of 350 plus boxes to see grounding connections.
 
I almost never have connections made up in boxes at rough in unless something is energized and in use.

NM cables usually don't even have sheath removed within boxes.

I think enough EC's in the State are doing the same that if the inspectors want to see connections at rough in, they are going to have to get it in the State Electrical Act which is the rules for both the inspectors and the contractors, or there will be enough resistance it isn't going to happen. We don't like others telling us what to do here, but most will still follow the rules if there are rules.

If something is accessible for inspection later it is not necessary to be completed for rough in inspection it is that simple.

If you are in a metro area where there are millions of people, you may or may not get to know certain inspectors. Out in rural areas most of us have the same inspector on every project or maybe have two or three inspectors we see on a regular basis. You get to know each other and the inspection process isn't always all that formal. The new guys, the homeowners doing their own work, etc. are the ones the inspectors will be looking at with a finer tooth comb. I had a rough in many years ago with an inspector that is no longer an inspector, older home service upgrade some remodeling in some areas, new HVAC, and maybe some added receptacles in existing walls here and there. Inspection time was maybe 5 to 10 minutes, not much got a real up close look either. The rest of the hour plus the guy was there we talked about elk hunting.
 
ptonsparky said:
and it is not our job to make installations based on his/her uninformed, poorly informed, HUA interpretations of code, (take your choice) prior to our knowledge of them.
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It's easy to get upset with inspectors when often it's just a lack of communication. I got all upset last year about an inspection and it turned out to be nothing at all (lack of commmunication).

Your first advice about talking to the inspector was the best way of dealing with things.
 
Here is my State's rules on rough-in:

When the initial (rough-in) inspection is conducted:

(a) All applicable circuit conductors and outlet boxes must be installed;

(b) All joints shall be made; and

(c) All grounding connections must be in compliance with Section 300.10 of the 2008 National Electric Code except as set forth in the exceptions enumerated in this subparagraph.

Exception No. 1: Where that portion of an installation which constitutes service
conductors and equipment is changed or modified.
Exception No. 2: Where all wiring or raceway is exposed
Exception No. 3: The requirements of (a) above shall not apply where inspection
is performed on raceway systems only.

...........................
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ptonsparky said:
and it is not our job to make installations based on his/her uninformed, poorly informed, HUA interpretations of code, (take your choice) prior to our knowledge of them.

Unless he can cite specific code references, my response stands.
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If they are wrong they are wrong.

My point was simply this, when there is a code violation it is on us even if the inspector missed it on the rough.
 
kwired said:
I almost never have connections made up in boxes at rough in unless something is energized and in use.
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Which begs the question why the heck not?

NM cables usually don't even have sheath removed within boxes.
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:huh:

You think it is easier / faster later?

I think enough EC's in the State are doing the same that if the inspectors want to see connections at rough in, they are going to have to get it in the State Electrical Act
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No, if they had a mind too all they would have to do is start saying 'call me back when you are ready' the message gets across pretty quick.

I am not saying they should, if it works for your area that is great. :)


If something is accessible for inspection later it is not necessary to be completed for rough in inspection it is that simple.
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Sure, and then they can have you or one of your men there all day at finish opening covers. Makes great sense. :roll:
 
Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
I almost never have connections made up in boxes at rough in unless something is energized and in use.
Which begs the question why the heck not? Usually not even completely finished when rough in inspection is performed. Have been able to get by with that though, especially with the inspectors I work with the most. If we don't inspect today the drywallers can't start tomorrow, inspector likely isn't coming back for another week or 10 days - their territories are large enough that is how it is, yet there isn't enough work going on it is worth hiring additional inspectors. We learn to make it work for everyone, that is a cornhusker state thing other midwestern states maybe understand some, the rest just don't get it.


NM cables usually don't even have sheath removed within boxes.




You think it is easier / faster later? No, it isn't any slower either. Drywallers and painters can spray it all they want, I will strip it off and have clean conductors if I wait until trim time. If I have time I do make up switch boxes. Seems to be easier to remember what you did if you make it up right away. But I also have marking methods that usually allow me to make them up reasonably error free if I wait until trim to make them up. I almost never make up receptacle boxes until trim time. For one thing I'd rather get down on my knees or sit down in front of those low on the wall boxes only once, strip sheath, make up any connections that need made up - seldom nothing but a Greenie on receptacles, land the conductors on the receptacle, mount the device and install the cover all in one trip to the knees or on my butt on the floor. The older I get the more important that seems to be, and I'm not really that old yet.


I think enough EC's in the State are doing the same that if the inspectors want to see connections at rough in, they are going to have to get it in the State Electrical Act
No, if they had a mind too all they would have to do is start saying 'call me back when you are ready' the message gets across pretty quick.


I am not saying they should, if it works for your area that is great.




If something is accessible for inspection later it is not necessary to be completed for rough in inspection it is that simple.


Sure, and then they can have you or one of your men there all day at finish opening covers. Makes great sense. Until they start enforcing such things we are all happy for now. I don't expect any change anytime soon. I do expect them to grill new guys, those with a history of violations or the homeowners doing their own wiring harder then most contractors though.

Sorry we have it better here then some have elsewhere.:)

well not really that sorry.
 
kwired said:
Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
I almost never have connections made up in boxes at rough in unless something is energized and in use.
Which begs the question why the heck not? Usually not even completely finished when rough in inspection is performed. Have been able to get by with that though, especially with the inspectors I work with the most. If we don't inspect today the drywallers can't start tomorrow, inspector likely isn't coming back for another week or 10 days - their territories are large enough that is how it is, yet there isn't enough work going on it is worth hiring additional inspectors. We learn to make it work for everyone, that is a cornhusker state thing other midwestern states maybe understand some, the rest just don't get it.


NM cables usually don't even have sheath removed within boxes.




You think it is easier / faster later? No, it isn't any slower either. Drywallers and painters can spray it all they want, I will strip it off and have clean conductors if I wait until trim time. If I have time I do make up switch boxes. Seems to be easier to remember what you did if you make it up right away. But I also have marking methods that usually allow me to make them up reasonably error free if I wait until trim to make them up. I almost never make up receptacle boxes until trim time. For one thing I'd rather get down on my knees or sit down in front of those low on the wall boxes only once, strip sheath, make up any connections that need made up - seldom nothing but a Greenie on receptacles, land the conductors on the receptacle, mount the device and install the cover all in one trip to the knees or on my butt on the floor. The older I get the more important that seems to be, and I'm not really that old yet.


I think enough EC's in the State are doing the same that if the inspectors want to see connections at rough in, they are going to have to get it in the State Electrical Act
No, if they had a mind too all they would have to do is start saying 'call me back when you are ready' the message gets across pretty quick.


I am not saying they should, if it works for your area that is great.




If something is accessible for inspection later it is not necessary to be completed for rough in inspection it is that simple.


Sure, and then they can have you or one of your men there all day at finish opening covers. Makes great sense. Until they start enforcing such things we are all happy for now. I don't expect any change anytime soon. I do expect them to grill new guys, those with a history of violations or the homeowners doing their own wiring harder then most contractors though.

Sorry we have it better here then some have elsewhere.:)

well not really that sorry.
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Interesting, different areas of the country. Around here not having everything made up is a major complaint from inspectors. For myself one big reason to splice out is if you missed something you will usually see it when you start making everything up. I also like to energize to see if there are any problems. As I write that I also know inspectors who not only want everything spliced they want everything safed off with wirenuts.
 
GerryB said:
Interesting, different areas of the country. Around here not having everything made up is a major complaint from inspectors. For myself one big reason to splice out is if you missed something you will usually see it when you start making everything up. I also like to energize to see if there are any problems. As I write that I also know inspectors who not only want everything spliced they want everything safed off with wirenuts.
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Years ago we used to energize and use quite a bit of things, especially the lighting and hang temporary light sockets from the lighting outlets to use for lighting during the remainder of construction.

I still do some of that but not necessarily everywhere like we used to. Some guys won't energize anything in the house at all. All power during construction comes from a temporary pole outside until they have most if not all inside work completed.

Since AFCI's have been required and expanded, I have given some thought as to whether or not it is worthwhile to energize as much as possible with the AFCI's installed - just to hopefully catch things that will be a bigger problem to solve later on. Haven't really done enough residential work in recent years though that I have given it that serious of thought. Back when I was doing a lot of dwellings the state amended out AFCI requirements. I have only done one or two new homes since they dropped the AFCI amendments, but that started with 2008 NEC. Haven't done any new homes under 2014 that I can recall, maybe not even done any under 2011 NEC. Do have one coming up next spring for one of my son's best friends from when he was in high school. Have had a couple major remodels where we did run a lot of new wiring and AFCI required on nearly all of it. Only had one case so far of a ground fault in concealed wiring causing AFCI to trip. That one was not too difficult to remedy though.
 
In every jurisdiction I have done residential work in Virginia, they have required the grounds to be made up in every box. Well, every box that had more than one ground wire.:p

I personally find it easier to strip the nm cable before inserting into the plastic box. Just like running AC and MC cables, strip before connecting to box. I think I am in the minority. Different strokes...

I do agree with cleaning paint off to be not a pleasant experience.:rant:

But since the grounds are already made up and shoved into the back of the box, only the ends need cleaning.
 
kwired said:
I think enough EC's in the State are doing the same that if the inspectors want to see connections at rough in, they are going to have to get it in the State Electrical Act which is the rules for both the inspectors and the contractors, or there will be enough resistance it isn't going to happen. We don't like others telling us what to do here, but most will still follow the rules if there are rules.
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Let see -- 250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes
Where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).
(A) Connections. Connections and splices shall be made in accordance with 110.14(B) except that insulation shall not be required.
(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire, or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or interrupt the grounding continuity.

I fully understand your circumstances of availability of inspectors and can agree with the methods they use. I believe 250.148 is a quick example of the requirement for make up at rough in. Inspections generally span a 30 min to 1 hr time frame & the NEC requires the connections for EGC as per 250.148. The most considered way of inspecting per 250.148 is at rough in since the boxes are open & a quick glance is all that is needed. To expect the inspector to wait for the EC to open up random device boxes during a final elongating the inspection is not really applicable in the real world.
 
How do you determine which NEC sections apply at rough vs finish?

I can't seem to find anything about it in the adopted NEC.
 
The NEC describes the required result at the time the process is complete. The inspectors, on behalf of the AHJ, are charged with insuring that result is correct. The way in which the inspectors need to interact with the builders (electricians) to achieve that end in a practical way is set out by the administrative rules and procedures of the AHJ.
That is, local rules at the AHJ level, not the NEC.

(the long version of "common sense")

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mwm1752 said:
Let see -- 250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes
Where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).
(A) Connections. Connections and splices shall be made in accordance with 110.14(B) except that insulation shall not be required.
(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, luminaire, or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or interrupt the grounding continuity.

I fully understand your circumstances of availability of inspectors and can agree with the methods they use. I believe 250.148 is a quick example of the requirement for make up at rough in. Inspections generally span a 30 min to 1 hr time frame & the NEC requires the connections for EGC as per 250.148. The most considered way of inspecting per 250.148 is at rough in since the boxes are open & a quick glance is all that is needed. To expect the inspector to wait for the EC to open up random device boxes during a final elongating the inspection is not really applicable in the real world.
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"Connections and splices shall be made in accordance with 110.14(B)" (quoted from above). Seems we have to comply with 110.14(A) as well, do inspectors in your area want to see all the devices and luminaires "connected" before you close up the outlet box? You certainly can open up any box at random and inspect for connection related violations. Even if everything but the device itself is made up at rough inspection do they look in every box at every connection or do they just randomly look at a few and if no problems noticed assume the installer knew what they were doing on the rest? It is one thing to have a second set of eyes on your work, mistakes happen, it is another to have a baby sitter because the AHJ don't trust those they issue licenses to.

iwire said:
How do you determine which NEC sections apply at rough vs finish?

I can't seem to find anything about it in the adopted NEC.
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:thumbsup:

ptonsparky said:
It's in the "Common Sense" section.:lol:...:lol:
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:

From what we read here I think a lot of places amend that section out.
 
kwired said:
"Connections and splices shall be made in accordance with 110.14(B)" (quoted from above). Seems we have to comply with 110.14(A) as well, do inspectors in your area want to see all the devices and luminaires "connected" before you close up the outlet box? You certainly can open up any box at random and inspect for connection related violations. Even if everything but the device itself is made up at rough inspection do they look in every box at every connection or do they just randomly look at a few and if no problems noticed assume the installer knew what they were doing on the rest? It is one thing to have a second set of eyes on your work, mistakes happen, it is another to have a baby sitter because the AHJ don't trust those they issue licenses to.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

From what we read here I think a lot of places amend that section out.
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& common sense would have me take my job as serious as you take yours -- I see quite a few comments on make up as common sense prior to rough in
 
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mwm1752 said:
& common sense would have me take my job as serious as you take yours -- I see quite a few comments on make up as common sense prior to rough in
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All my point is, is that the connections are still accessible after wall covering is installed. If an AHJ demands you have them made up at rough in inspection, I guess that is what it is. There is still connections to the device or luminaire that they generally don't ever look at though if they don't open things up at final inspection.

My other point is if the trust of those they issue licenses to is that low that they need to see every single detail of the installation - why do they even issue licenses? May as well have the city, county, or state operate the electrical installation business and kick out all the contractors.:slaphead:
 
With me it's simple, and more so with metal boxes than plastic, but you are required to bond your boxes. If at rough you have decided not to make up your wires then that's fine and you can open all of the boxes and light fixtures so that we can verify that you have done so. If it's done at rough, then I don't have to open near as many boxes to check that they are done correctly.

I have no problem with which method you use, but then you don't get to have a problem with which method I use to inspect it.
 
Frank DuVal said:
In every jurisdiction I have done residential work in Virginia, they have required the grounds to be made up in every box. Well, every box that had more than one ground wire.:p

I personally find it easier to strip the nm cable before inserting into the plastic box. Just like running AC and MC cables, strip before connecting to box. I think I am in the minority. Different strokes...

I do agree with cleaning paint off to be not a pleasant experience.:rant:

But since the grounds are already made up and shoved into the back of the box, only the ends need cleaning.
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Painter's tape in the boxes prevents needing to clean wiring. I used it quite a bit when doing keystones on v/d/v on commercial properties (where there can be a month or more between the time the drywall is finished and painting starts), because a painted keystone is a $5 paperweight and waste of time reterminating. A helper with a $7 roll of tape and 2-3 hours can tape every v/d/v box in an average sized hotel (roughly 400 boxes). Yanking out tape is also a ton easier than cleaning half a pound of mud out of a box.
 
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