Residential Grade Material

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Residential Grade Material

cs409: not to prolong this argument, but your original question did not merely ask me if i was asserting that there was a weak point, it implied that it was not true with the inclusion of the reference to modular panels. That is why I responded again. Super neat looks great, (tastes) great, less filling on the pocket book.

I still haven't got an answer from a super neater about compromising a stud or two or... when large knots or other defects, or let braces, or other defects fall on the drill line. I do not think that neat is more important than structure. I was always more worried about turning plates and studs into swiss cheese after all the holes are drilled for large panels and sub panels.

I do not think that there is ONE right way. I think speed and efficiency need to be balanced against safe and secure wiring, the codes being the MINIMUM. I think it's fine that there are a variety of styles of wiring for contractors/homeowners to pick from.

The contractor knows if he is getting his money's worth from his subs, but does the homeowner? Does he know if it's quality or speed that is the defining methodology of the electrical subcontractor. I always added in time for holding the owners hands with their pet ideas for what they wanted. Clarified that some personal choices might be resale oddities. This is not true for slam dunk/bare bones/tract bids.

Architects hardly give a second thought to some custom home electrical plusses. I have seen super custom designs with marginal lighting, as if the architect was afraid that any electrical extra would compromise the budget for their great design. A few minutes with the future owner can add nicely to the pocket book and turn a two day rough into much more.

sorry for the length, paul
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

When I encounter a real whopper knot in a piece a carpenter should have thrown into the scrap pile for blocking/headers, I'll scab a sister along the bad spot and glue & deck screw it, then drill as needed. Takes a tad longer, but not all that much, and I know I'm not going to cause a later failure.

Wood quality has indeed slipped in recent years too. Not uncommon to find tight grained quarter sawn spruce 2X4's in 50 year old construction. Got a better shot at sighting Elvis than finding one of those in the lumber yard today :D
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

Originally posted by tonyi:
When I encounter a real whopper knot in a piece a carpenter should have thrown into the scrap pile for blocking/headers, I'll scab a sister along the bad spot and glue & deck screw it, then drill as needed. Takes a tad longer, but not all that much, and I know I'm not going to cause a later failure.
Click to expand...
It must be tough to do everyones job. :)
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

one thing about all the post on this subject. they all make goood sense! some a bit different, some traditional etc.....as with the bad stud,,,sister one next to it... all works well....... one thing that may have been over looked,,,,with all these post, we have thought, and with thought one has concern, and with concern you end up with good work.

in closing for me,,,,,,, do good work, do it to code(and at least try to use good common sense when code doesnt apply ) and almost last,,,use UL listed products,,,it matters not if its homeline or QO...try to go a bit over minimum.....and last,,,,,make sure you collect your money for a job well done
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

Originally posted by iwire:
It must be tough to do everyones job. :)
Click to expand...
Why would I delay installing something, call a carpenter, wait for them to show up (which might take weeks if its an old work/rehab job) when I can fix the issue myself in 10 minutes? This is the same reason why I own a torch set - to adjust plumbing that's in a particularly inconveniant place or ancient valves leaking all over me while I try to strap something up. I want to get it done, not wait around for someone else.

If you want to get on with a job in a timely manner and not raise costs excessively, you do what you gotta do.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

Originally posted by tonyi:
...This is the same reason why I own a torch set - to adjust plumbing that's in a particularly inconveniant place or ancient valves leaking all over me while I try to strap something up...
Click to expand...
I'm not touching other trade materials or equipment, and I would certainly not like it if they adjusted or altered mine. I'm also pretty certain my insurance coverage only covers that work within the scope of my license. Making plumbing adjustments is definitely not. :eek:

[ June 06, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

so the plumber can move some of my wires, i can rearrange the ducting. Anyone who feels confidant, busy, important, can redo the plumbing. Do not tell the inspector. In many places that is another pressure test.

I can see that there might be some situations where the work would not be overstepping, but I could see several very touchy contractors, or subs, or tradesmen.
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

Touching others work is a fast way to a back charge.Your licensed to do electrical only.What may seem minor to you might be major to them.Would we want other trades to maybe move our receptacles over one stud to free an area for whatever they need to put there ? With our rules on spacing we could easily end up with a violation.I do nothing to other trades unless the job super tells me to.If that AC drop is in a place that clearly is for a can or other fixture then yes move it but not till i get the ok first.Was warned once by my boss not to even undo a water line to a dishwasher that was being replaced.Should it leak we would now be without insurance to cover repairs.Yes sometimes it slows the job up.Other than adding wood for our fan or a scab to keep box away from door we do not do framing.
 
Re: Residential Grade Material

The Internet cracks me up. In the old days when written coorespondence was by hand or by typewriter only, no way would we be seeing this much bruha over nothing. If you are a speed demon, good for you. If you are nice and super neat (I fall into this crowd, it takes me 7or 8 days alone to wire up a 2800 sq ft house) good for you also.
 
I agree neat counts ..here comes the but
Even on the best of residential jobs labor is about half the cost .Increase your time so that your holes are within 1/4 inch of each other in hight and someone else will be doing what should have been your work within six months.
On the other hand If the inspector comes in and first thing he sees is crap he will be looking for crap.and we all know when they look hard enough they can find something on any job .
My advice ..be neat not anal ,square of wires nicely ,staple or fasten where ever needed ,use safe but competatative products ,otherwise move to fla and bid here its fast paced work.Every contract specifies work to be completed in a timly manner . thats about 3 days tops on a 3 bed 2 bath ranch CBS constructed home in the 2k sq ft range ussually metal stud .
 
A little different perspective:

Electrical Contractors need to spend a little more time marketing your product. Instead of allowing the General Contractor to simply force you to low ball your price, you need to sell them on the idea of how important the electrical package is. In this day and age with electronics, and gadgets needing power, the low ball electrical package doesn't cut it. Using minimum code requirements for number of circuits in a house is plane crap. I got a $400k+ house, and when an iron is plugged in the wall outlet in the bedroom, it dims the f**kin kitchen lights. But of coarse the standard HO panel is max'd out on circuits because it's as small as possible. I can't even add a hot tub without doing a panel change out. The plugs and switches installed are the $0.38 cheap o's instead of a least the Decora style (BTW: Pass and Seymour makes a nicer one) The original fixtures installed are the $2 and $3 one's just to get completion. Their are minimum number of outlets (not always usable locations). I think you get the picture.

OK, the long and short of it, convince the general that you need to have a sit down meeting with the HO to discuss electrical options, i.e lighting choices, switching options, locations for power, future capabilities, phone and cable access, etc. Don't just say it's X dollars per outlet or to add this, it's x dollars, get their input, and then provide an additional lump sum price for the extras. Make them feel like they have a say so, and I guarantee you, they would be willing to pay more for electrical. I bought my house already built so too bad for me, but I would have gladly payed an additional $2000 or more to the electrical contractor to get some of these things up front.

The problem is your letting the General low ball you, and turn your services into a commodity. As an industry, there is a huge shortage of electricians, it would be a good time to start marketing your services and making a profit, instead of cutting each others throats to get the lowest price. Otherwise, why bother, McDonald's is always hiring.
 
kingpb said:
convince the general that you need to have a sit down meeting with the HO to discuss electrical options, i.e lighting choices, switching options, locations for power, future capabilities, phone and cable access, etc.
Click to expand...

I totaly agree with you, but ... I have to remember this is a business, a job, to make money, fast! Now your trying to get personal with the HO & offer a better product by explaning why, & where the payoff comes into the picture. Remember this new HO is not your friend. Its a paying customer. Big difference.
Same thing, almost, as trying to convince someone not to buy a Hyundai & buy a Honda. ANd what difference does it make to you personally what they drive? No one is putting a gun to there head to by entry level fixtures & devices.
There is a difference in being a friend & being friendly. Smile while you install the crap the builder wants. But remember your not invited to the new HO's kids birtday party.

Do you think the companies manufacturing this crap for Depot & walmart tries to talk the buyers into spending more on better quality?

The crap the builders install is a money stream for me for years after the sale. Please don't take that away from me.
 
U. P. Chuck Electric said:
I totaly agree with you, but ... I have to remember this is a business, a job, to make money, fast! Now your trying to get personal with the HO & offer a better product by explaning why, & where the payoff comes into the picture. Remember this new HO is not your friend. Its a paying customer. Big difference.
Click to expand...
But isn't the General doing that exact thing when he convinces the HO to go with an upgrade on carpet, or put in tile in the kitchen , or granite counter tops, fancier appliances, side entrance on garage, finish out part of the basement, etc, etc.

Now comes Joey electrician, doing bare bones NEC, which I adamently say is crap work if it JUST meets Code. Sure, some HO are just glad to have a home, and won't care about anything extra, that's fine, the illegals can stay busy doing the monkey work. But is that what you call being in business? Busting your ass, doing minimum quality and quantity? Hoping you make enough to go to the bar at the end of the week? I've seen plenty of small shop electrician's go out of business because they can't market their services and think to stay in business they have to compete with every lowballer out there.

I honestly think that most HO (and General Contractors) are ignorant about electrical, and don't even know what goodies they could have. Spending a little time on marketing and salesmanship would payoff tenfold to your business.

As far as keeping you going for years later, I always thought one in the hand is worth two in the bush! And how is it going to keep you going later when HD and Lowes pushes DIY anyway? Oops, looks like you just lost your two in the bush!
 
With the backbiting that has been established in the electrical trade especially the residential side I don?t usually post in this type of thread but this one has hit a nerve. Yes I have read the whole thread.

I have been in the electrical trade for more than 37 years and the residential area for more than 20 of these years. I have done condominiums, townhouses, apartments, duplexes, single family dwellings from 1000 sq. ft. to huge custom homes.

The one thing that I have learned in all of these years is that there is another electrician out there that is going to belittle my work as being cheap and crappy. I have also learned that most of these electricians are only trying to make their work look so much superior to mine in order to justify their price when in reality their work is a lot more dangerous and non code compliant than most.

The NEC is designed to assure that any installation is safe and free from hazards when the bare code minimum is installed in a code compliant installation.

I have never heard any of this backbiting going on in a large apartment complex. Most will have a panel that has been calculated to the load of the unit. The circuits installed will be based on the sections of the NEC that apply to the situation such as only 2 small appliance circuits and 2 general lighting circuits in a 1200 sq. ft. unit.
These units are built on a daily basis and there are no problems with them other than tenant abuse.

Now we move into a single family dwelling and the electrical world seems to change. Anyone that installs a 100 amp panel is a hack. Anyone installing just 2 small appliance circuits is a hack. Putting more than one bedroom on a circuit makes you a hack. Complying with the listing and labeling of a third party testing lab such as UL will make you a hack. Using you hammer to nail up receptacle boxes makes you a hack. This list that makes a hack goes on and on and on and never ends.

Why? Are not the 1200 sq. ft. apartment and the house the same thing? Will they both house people that will be eating and sleeping in the same manner? What makes the electrical system installed in the two units different?

It has been my experience that the only difference is one electrician is trying to make him/her self look so much better than the others. The cold hard truth of the matter is that most electricians in the residential field today have no clue on how to do a service calculation nor how to figure the load on a circuit. Their mentality is that bigger is better. Installing pig tails at each device makes the job safer. Using the screw is a lot safer than using the tested and approved stab-loc on the device. Making sure that all the cables are neat and level will insure that you will pass your inspection.

To each and every one of these electricians I ask how in this world are all of these installations that are still in use today with no more than a 60 amp service and four Edison base fuses installed still working. Shouldn?t someone destroy all of these homes?
I just did a bid for a friend who is going to build four 1150 sq. ft. two bedroom rent houses. These houses will have gas heat and a gas water heater.
I bid a 100 amp panel for each house. The panel will consist of one 30 amp breaker for the AC unit with 3 twenty amp breakers and four 15 amp breakers and I am done. All the devices on the 15 amp circuits will be back stabbed and no cable will be kept straight and level, just drill and pull. The cheapest of devices will be bought and installed.

Now let?s see how many will end up calling this a hack job. I can assure you that the builder was very happy with my bid.
As a side note, out of the five people that he had bid these houses I was the only one that didn?t list a 200 amp service. Why would all that service be needed?
 
mjf said:
Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Measuring and marking out lines on studs before drilling is a huge waste of time. The only person that will care or notice this is you.


I must disagree. It only takes a few minutes to snap a line on joists, then just keep your heights real close by eye. Snap lines on studs then drill in center by eye.


The ease of pulling wire through nice, neat (straight, equal height) holes will actually save you time, and you get the benefit (and satisfaction) of knowing you did the best job you can do and be proud of your work.


There are times when my brain screams at me to take short cuts (hot crawlspace type attic with my face in old insulation, etc.), but once I finish the job correctly, they are the most rewarding jobs.
Click to expand...

I agree whole-heartedly. Marking studs for drill takes maybe 20 minutes on an average size house, but you more then make it up in wiring time.

I've also found that when I do a nice, neat rough-in (or any job for that matter), the inspectors spend less time scrutinizing your work, and are more likely to pass minor problems (or allow you to fix them without a re-inspect). Once you've dealt with an inspector a few times, and he knows the quality of your work, I've had them sign off the job with barely a glance. Quality pays!
Click to expand...
 
andycook said:
I agree whole-heartedly. Marking studs for drill takes maybe 20 minutes on an average size house, but you more then make it up in wiring time.

I've also found that when I do a nice, neat rough-in (or any job for that matter), the inspectors spend less time scrutinizing your work, and are more likely to pass minor problems (or allow you to fix them without a re-inspect). Once you've dealt with an inspector a few times, and he knows the quality of your work, I've had them sign off the job with barely a glance. Quality pays!
Click to expand...

Please understand that I am not trying to be obnoxious nor rude but the part of your post that I have underlined I do not understand.

As I was very careful to point out in my post above;
jwelectric said:
The NEC is designed to assure that any installation is safe and free from hazards when the code minimum is installed in a code compliant installation.
Click to expand...
Any installation that is code compliant is a safe installation and is free from hazards but you make a statement that leads me to believe that an installation that is pretty don’t need to be code compliant as outlined by the underlined statement.

Are you replacing compliance with beauty?

Is a beautiful noncompliant installation safer than a sloppy compliant installation?

Myself, I have always looked at safety and compliance before I looked at anything else.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top